MHS831

This is what we discuss this time of year, folks. And until we know who is on the board, I do not know how anyone can say with certainty, "I am not moving down..." You look at the board and make decisions accordingly, so you really should consider possible offers.

I agree, and if the trade is for a QB, and if NYG think LV is going after the same day 2 QB, that could happen.

It was ridiculous--I agree--but I was not quoting them--I was speculating because the teams that need a QB (we believe) will not all get one--they have Denver taking Nix at #12. I say, "not likely, especially if they don't have a second rounder..." etc. It is a shame you quite reading because it explains what teams might offer us on day 2----and I predict it will be a team looking to move up for a QB.

You have to consider that a player will fall to us at 33 that they thought would be gone--then you have to think, "Is giving up on a first-round talent worth swapping a fourth for a third?"

Hello cyber chums, The Background: A lot of the mockers are going with scenarios that include QBs Nix and maybe even Penix being taken in the first round. Today of an ESPN mock show they showed Denver grabbing Nix at #12. That would be a huge reach, and Payton has never taken a QB in the first round--(if that means anything). Since the Raiders are unlikely to draft Nix at #13, there are really no teams picking after the Raiders who need a QB. Furthermore, some have been predicting that New England will trade back from the #3 position because they have so many needs. In a QB rich draft and a poor QB draft in 2025, that would be stupid. So I think they take Maye. The Vikings have 2 first round picks and I expect them to trade up with the Cards. They have the currency to make a move. (Vikings picks 11 and 23 total about 2000 points; the Cards #4 pick is worth 1800). The Giants could also move up, but they would have to use Jones in the trade, meaning that only New England would be interested; I just do not see it happening. Denver does not have a second round pick, so they are unable to move up using 2024 draft picks. I think the Giants could decide to hold on to Jones for a while and maybe take a QB later in the draft. It is likely that the top 4 QBs are gone in the top 5 picks, with the Raiders, Broncos, and Giants still in the market. The two QBs who they might have interest in, Nix and Pinix, have early second round grades. Of course, they could all trade back, but since no team after pick 13 needs a QB, it makes the end of the first round or the beginning of the second round the most obvious landing places. I think that Denver is going to go after Nix fairly hard, and I can see them trading back to around 28 or so to get him. When they turn off the lights after round one, they pick up the phones. It is my guess that the Raiders and possibly the Giants will want to move up for Penix. The Raiders have picks 44 (460 points) and 77 (205 points, 665 combined). The #33 pick is worth 580 points. If the Panthers threw in pick 101 (96 points), it would be a good trade for a QB (665 for 676). the Raiders could throw in their late 6th rounder (8.2 points) to even it out. It is my opinion that Denver will trade back in the first round and take Nix. The Raiders will trade up to attempt to grab Penix--and the Giants could compete with them, forcing both to deal with the Panthers. The Raider trade: Vegas: Pick 44, 77, and 208. (2nd, 3rd, and 6th) Carolina: Pick 33, 101. (2nd and 4th) If the Giants decide to trade: NY Giants: Picks 47, 70 (670 points--2nd, 3rd) Carolina: Picks 33, 101 (676 points-2nd, 4th) How would it change the draft for the Panthers? Panthers picks (rounds 1-3): 39, 44, 65 (if trade with Raiders) No fourth rounder. 39, 47, 70 (If traded with NYG) No fourth rounder. Basically, is it worth the early third round pick for the early fourth round pick to drop 11 to 14 spots in Round 2? FWIW, I see a pretty substantial drop off at our positions of need in the middle of the third round with most of the mocks I have seen. If we can get 3 picks in that top 75 picks or so, I am in favor of the trade. What are your impressions?

I dunno. I look for growth and leadership when it gets tough, and I did not see much of either. When a man wearing a C on his jersey decides to play soft to save himself from injury, you have to wonder how it impacted the rest of the team. I actually saw degression on the OL, and the constant position and personnel changes meant to me that they had no plan. Campen should have known who was ready and who was not, instead, we relied on suckage seen on game film. It was terrible.

me too. I think we will go TE some how some way I wonder how many of those edges were before Clowney signed. I like to look for patterns--some of these names are to show interest to players who might go undrafted. Here is what I noticed-- NO true Centers. There are no signs that we might take a Center in the draft. On this list, Haynes is listed as a C/G but he did not play C at UConn. RG. The Morgan influence suggests that they might take an ILB "dawg" early. Wilson and Cooper are mid second rounders at least--if not earlier. They are really doing homework on the WRs. We have met with 8 of them. Could we take 2? To me, it is scary that they have checked out Wiggins (CB Clemson). 175 lbs and not good in run support---we need our CBs to come up and contain. He reminds me of Henderson. Someone talk me out of it. I do not understand the lack of attention to the CB position. Neither RIchardson nor Wiggins are good in run support, and Richardson is simply not a good CB considering his athleticism. He is a fifth or sixth rounder imo. Based on these lists, I would say WR and ILB in the second round. TE maybe in the third.

I feel the same about Keon Coleman. Scared of him.

Do they have 2 weeks in which to get in one week of practice? Just speculation.

I will say that since QBs now want second contracts nearly 25% of the cap, RB is a good place not to pay players on second contracts.

You are so sweet!!! I was just having some fun with you, since you were with me.

By the way--some of you need some ability to understand that a thread that is titled "Hope for TMJ?" Is not a ringing endorsement to fit him for a yellow jacket. It means that he might still have a pulse, and perhaps it is too premature to throw dirt on his casket. Do you comprehend the difference?

yep. And if they became that here, it would not be bad for the 4th and 5th WRs--they were over drafted. Mingo had 418 yards in 2023 and TMJ had 490 yards in 2022--under horrible conditions for WRs. Although rare, if everyone does their jobs, you don't necessarily need 2 1000 yd WRs.

Just to get some new blood flowing--however, yes, he is still on the roster and a new system/coach might help. I am going out on a limb here and going to speculate that the staff and front office know more than the Huddle--the over reactors of everything Panther related.

Yeah, a lot of football is mental. I do believe that Canales knows that--he is so positive. Maybe, just maybe.... It is really easy to say that he sucks- but if you step back and look at this big picture, his skill set is not a good match for the crap we have had here on offense--As a former college player who caught passes, I can tell you that your job is to get open and get the QB to see you and throw you the ball. He did that 10% of the time the QB passed the ball when he played. In comparison, Thielen who had a 1000 yard season, had 13% of the targets. If you compare the catch percentage of targets to the QB percentage for completions, 64% was the average completion percentage last year. TMJ has had 2 seasons at 60% or above--that suggests that he is not far from where he should be. So what is the issue? He has 5 drops in his career--that ain't it, but it is about 9%, which is a bit high. If they can improve the situation for TMJ, he could suddenly not suck--we shall see.

It is a "so you say there is a chance" situation, but he has the foundation.

This place hates you sometimes. For the record. So you are suggesting that, since you think a 23-year old football player coming off a bad season in which he played 9 games is a joke. I never claimed that he was the second coming, but your response seems to suggest that someone has dared to contradict one of your unsupported opinions. Tell me, did you read this at all? Do you see where anyone is saying he will be good or great? Since nobody said that, why do you feel the need to jump in and talking about what you hate ? Are we supposed to give a shiit? Learn to think critically and respond maturely. this ain't middle school, and you will see that when you get there.

This is just some offseason logic because I was seeing the same old thread topics on the Huddle and decided to stir to pot a bit, and I assure you that I am prepared for the "he sucks!" and "What the hell is wrong with you!!!" responses; I have doubled up on my meds today. But as we focus on the top of the WR room--appropriately--we have a lot of stock in 33-34 year old Thielen and newcomer (5-10, 180lb) Johnson. Neither Johnson nor Thielen is a candidate to return in 2025--but that remains to be seen. I had given up on TMJ, and I am not sure that the Panthers have not as well. However, there is something I ran across that suggests he deserves one more season. Based on this stat alone, the author predicted TMJ would have a breakout year in 2023 and "become a household name." Obviously that did not happen, but there were many factors that prevented him to be able to excel in this particular area of his game--and we can blame Bryce and the OL, but maybe the factors were not in place for him to shine. In 2022, Marshall was tops on the list of WRs who ran "GO" routes. See #3, and remember how Canales used Evans in Tampa-- @PFF 1. Terrace Marshall: (97.1) 2. A.J. Brown: (96.6) 3. Mike Evans: (95.1) Of course, Marshall did not have the yardage the others' had (Marshall had almost 500 yards in 2022), but he did not have the opportunities either. Marshall is still 23 years old. Diontae Johnson caught 59% of his targets in 2023, while Marshall Jr. caught 63%. Thielen caught 76%, for context. Chark, the person they brought in to be a deep threat, caught 56% of his targets. Mingo caught 52% of his targets. The only difference between Marshall and all other WRs not named Thielen seems to be the number of overall targets. This suggests (to me) that TMJ is not a great route runner since the GO is the easiest route to run. I think that Canales will want to work to develop TMJ. Put him in a position to succeed. In 2023, TMJ played in 9 games and actually was targeted more than Mingo per game when he was playing (10% to 9%). Mingo played in six more games. Johnson, in Pittsburgh, was target 15% of the time, more than Thielen (13%). In 2022, however, TMJ averaged 17.5 yards per catch and had 490 yards, catching 60% of targets--his QB play was not good, but the OL was much better, allowing him to run longer, deeper routes. I contend that TMJ's digression was likely due to the OL's performance in 2023, not allowing him the time to run the routes that have been proven to be the most successful in his tool belt. Again, he is 23, turning 24 in June. Some of the WRs in the draft this season are that age. Mingo turns 23 this month, fwiw. Can Canales save TMJ? At 6'2" TMJ does have the size he needs to be an outside WR and he has show to be at his best running the same routes Evans and AJ Brown run--so who knows? With a new OL and new coaching staff, I say let him have camp to see what he can do. Still, at age 23, there could be something there. I realize some will say that both Mingo and TMJ suck, but TMJ actually outperformed Mingo last season if you break it down to the number of games, targets, and production per target.

In this game, he was (going from memory) 12 of 21 for 200 yards. Not that great, but this pass, with protection, was big time.

I think I would take Legette over the Texas WRs.

If Fitterer had stayed, it would be fair to call us the UFL's AAA affiliate.

And even if you didn't, Corbett is in the last year of his contract.

I have been mocking, good people, and it is difficult to not mock a C. I just wish I knew how good Corbett can be there. If

We were asking about you. We have had little to argue against without your opinions being posted on here. In fact, I'd say we have been in agreement. We need the conflict that you bring!! Seriously--glad to see you are back

You say two things that I find to be rather interesting. I have been of the mindset that they think they have a center in Corbett. However, they would say that until they draft his replacement, so this issue will be interesting on draft day. I understand that they are going to groom Cade Mays to be the backup center, but Corbett is in the final year of a deal, so drafting a C early could be something they do. As for the Burns/Luvu comment, I think Luvu was used mostly at ILB last season, not OLB. I think, if you consider that we get WILB Thompson back, we will have Thompson and Jewell at ILB when Luvu and committee (Gruiger Hill) were playing ILB last season. Burns, Haynes, and Yeter Gross-Matos were the primary OLBs in 2023, and they are all gone. Now we have Clowney, Wonnum, Chaisson, Barno, DJ Johnson, and Leota at the OLB spots--hard to say they would be better. Biurns (8), YGM (4.5) and Haynes (1) produced only 13.5 sacks last season. Clowney (9.5) and Wonnum (8) and Chaisson (2) produced 19.5 sacks on three different teams last season. If you consider the plan is to develop the impressive athleticism of Barno and Johnson and continue the development of Leota, I am not sure we lost ground. I should note that Clowney and Wonnum's sack totals were career highs, so we should probably expect about 7 from Clowney and probably around 6 from Wonnum--which equals the top 3 Panther OLBs in 2023. I expect Chaisson to be developed here--I would not be surprised to see him become a significant rotational player. Furthermore, Derrick Brown played all the time (more than he probably should have) and he forced sacks to these edge rushers. This year, with Brown and Robinson inside, I expect more collapsed pockets, increasing the sack production for the edge rushers. Luvu is the variable here that must be considered. He had 5.5 sacks. New Panther LB Josey Jewell had 3 in Denver. So if you include Luvu in the Panther sack total the OLBs, The Panthers had a total of 19 sacks from their 4 top contributors. If you throw Jewell into the mix of the four top additions to the Panther roster, the total is 22.5. So the sack production from 2023 actually increased by 3.5 sacks. I do not think sacks, however, is a fair assessment of the overall productivity, but we actually are in a better place in terms of potential sack production.