MHS831

Understand that I am not suggesting that we have only one option or that Bryce young is the future---It seems people on discussions boards are all black or all white--most of this is gray, but they showed his (albeit a small sample) stats before and after the benching on TV--and there was improvement---and the defense was not on the field--at the time--so you make some statements that are nice talking points, but not based on fact. I realize you felt the need to pound your chest, but if we are going to discuss players, be truthful and not emotional, especially when you make statements to support your assumption. There is no doubt that Bryce has been releasing the ball sooner, throwing it downfield more, and going through his progressions with more confidence. While I realize a defense gives the QB more opportunities and better field position, all QBs have defenses. My attempt is not to praise or belittle, but to look for truths that will help us/me see the direction this club will go. If the experts thought he was not improving or that he was done, they would not play him the rest of the season as you suggest. There are 52 other players on this roster, and if you lose them and hurt their stats by proving a pointless point about your QB, you demonstrate that you do not know how a team operates. Could Bryce improve? It is possible--regardless of how certain you are now. Can he improve enough? I doubt it, but I have seen stranger things happen. Yes, your opinion is widely accepted, but there is no need to makes unsubstantiated statements or embellish his stats. In the past 2 games, he is showing statistical improvement--they showed the graph on TV. The after was not great, and the before was terrible.

why is that important? I hope Bryce continues to get better so we can focus on edge and WR in the draft.

Bryce. Canton is calling....

Spoken up.

Folks, the Giants is not a good place for a QB--and Jones is fighting demons. My point was about his skill set--and it was simply an "outside the box" thought to discuss. Unfortunately, the concept was too overwhelming for life's concrete operational thinkers. Maybe it was a bad idea, but the attempt to discuss a possibility was ambushed by some newbs entering their sixth year of puberty. Jones has a solid skill set--which was my point. He is mobile, tall, and he can throw the football. His problems seem to be mental.

But you have the benefit of hindsight--another fugn newb with omniscience...damn you, free McDonald's internet!!! This is the side effect!!!

Again, you are putting words in my mouth--and then you show us all how clever you are! Bravo! Just stop acting like a friggin' know it all. Focus on the players and not the opinions of others--we see newbs like you come and go--very tired of your type.

Both of them?

Amazing. You make a mistake when you present opinions as if you are all knowing and everyone else needs your condescending correction. So, OK. Thanks for the wisdom--now back to work--those fries don't pull themselves out of that oil.

When did I say top 3 picks? Talking about starters who were unsuccessful or sent packing from one team to find more success on another--- Goff? Carr? Geno Smith? Darnold? Baker? --heck, if you take those QBs alone (5) you are talking about over 15% of the league. But you are looking at performance and I am looking at skill set and fit. What you did not mention is the bust rate for the rookie qbs who are drafted. Why is that? Fit and, in my view, opportunity to develop. I know that it is easy to say, "I saw this on TV" or "but he has only been good for a short amount of time" well, this process is not a lifetime achievement award. Darnold was here for a half season--did he ever show the success he did here as he has in Minnesota? Nope. So what is the difference? FIT. My point? If Jones is a top 7 QB over the past 3 years when throwing from a clean pocket and here, we will have a top running back room (Hubbard and Brooks), a good young WR room, a good young developing TE, and a veteran, top 5 offensive line--those are the conditions that would make him throw from clean pockets. That is all I am saying--did I give him a gold jacket? I said it was risky. So is drafting a QB. I also mentioned other ways our team could improve. But you decide to put words in my mouth and then argue against those words. Brilliant.

When throwing from a clean pocket, he is the 7th ranked passer in the NFL over the past few seasons. You are seeing him in the worst case scenario. You will see him (Sunday) with Nabers and a few others, no real running game, No real TEs, and an improved but average OL that has been banged up. He is a big QB that can run and if given time, he can throw dimes. You have to have vision--and be willing to take a chance on a veteran---the trend in the NFL has been these unloved stocks have done well when put in the best situation for their skills--better than rookie QBs. I see why you say that--but the skill set is there.

Just an option that people aren't considering. To defend Jones, he has never really had a good situation, and you and I know that the situation is critically important for any QB. Jones had a good season--I do not look at it that way--I look at his skill set, size, and what he has demonstrated when the situation was good--and he has excelled in that situation, based on the data I reviewed. Goff was not good in LA and they wanted to get rid of him---Detroit got a ton for Stafford and may have the better QB. Darnold struggled in two situations and sat in SF, but he has weapons and a good defense in Minnesota, and he is doing well. Mayfield found a home in Tampa that is matched with his style of play. Here, a player like Jones who has never had the four ingredients a successful QB needs: OL, WRs, Running game, and TEs. He has had 2 of 4 most of the time. Drafting Ward or Sanders is risky because you don't address Edge unless you spend $30m in free agency--and who wants to come to Carolina? Jones needs new scenery and here, he has the 4 ingredients--and if the defense is rebuilt--he will be good. You pay him the same you would an elite Edge in free agency, and you can turn the page in 2 years if that is the decision. Here, Jones has a top 10 OL, a stout running game, solid young WRs (that will need a veteran QB), and a developing TE. In addition, this move back in the draft allows you to draft a QB who is not pressured to succeed right away--like so many busts have. Allar, for example, is 20--in two years under Jones, he would be 23 and developed. Just a thought. Is there any answer that is right? Nope. I just see in Jones what others have seen in skilled QBs in bad situations. Trade back, get your edge, sign Jones, draft a WR and QB on day 2. To me, it is less risky than rolling the dice again on an early round QB who must sink or swim from day 1. But, yeah, there is a chance this does not work. I think it would be the smart move.

Thanks--I do to (love thinking that's outside the box). I think the best QB from this draft will not be Sanders or Ward, for some reason--but Sanders will be a better pro than Ward, in my opinion. In 10 years, we will look back and say, "Hmmm. Who knew Rourke would be the steal of that draft?" (example). Nussmieir and Allar are on my radar now-- If you need an edge on defense, where are you going to find a starter except in round 1? (Or overpay for a veteran). Instead of putting all eggs in the Jones basket, and stats prove that he can play in perfect conditions, you basically bring in an experienced, perhaps transitional qb, and you draft a QB later and develop him. So you are adding 2 QBs to the QB problem and not going "all in" on a guy who may simply be a system qb in college and can't transition. An early first rounder is usually forced to start so they do not get a year or two in the QB room watching a veteran work and improve. If Ward becomes the next Patrick Mahommes, you look stupid, but in this scenario, (and it is not perfect--still a risk) you fill the edge need, draft a QB, sign a veteran QB, and allow Bryce to compete. Three options and you get the edge and a WR in the draft. I will be watching Jones vs. Panthers (32nd in the NFL in QB pressures) closely Sun AM. If he plays well vs. us, it validates what I am saying and he could be beaten down for reasons beyond his doing. We shall see (That is why I am mentioning this stuff this week_). Take care

I have been living on the edge this week--and I put out on another thread or created one--maybe in always current "2023 Draft" board/room, that we should consider trading back even if Cam Ward is there. I am not sold on his entire body of work--and wonder if he is a system QB (I hate saying that) or if he is finally putting it all together. Here is what I know---(repeating myself): The Giants are down on Daniel Jones after giving him a huge deal after the 2022 season, one where he had a pretty good supporting cast. In 2023 he had a horrible OL and struggled. His weapons? Not good. In 2024, he has NO running game behind him, there have been a few key injuries to the OL...For the past 2 years, this pocket passer has been pressured a lot--most in the league (according to one article--I read several and did not save links---this is from memory). THIS SHOCKED ME: Throughout his career, he is ranked #7 when throwing from a clean pocket. He is 6' 5" and 230--I imagine about 8 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier than Bryce and he is probably more mobile that Bryce. We have a good OL, and could probably upgrade at C and maybe T. With Canales teaching the 2.4 seconds rule, he could be better in a different setting. The Giants are talking about benching him. Daboll is desperate and on the hottest of hot seats---they can't really cut him now--cap hell. However, If we acquired him, we'd only owe his remaining salary, not his signing bonus, and that figure would be about $60m for 2 seasons. The Giants would love getting out of that and might even absorb some costs. Jones gets a strong running game, awesome OL, and if we draft a WR early, XL, Thielen, Coker, Moore, and a stud rookie would be pretty impressive. If Sanders (TE) keeps developing and Tremble can stay healthy, TE is better than it has been for a while. I think Jones, at age 29, would be ready to step in and make things happen--a Darnold/Mayfield story. Jones contract is good through 2026, so that gives you time to evaluate him. In the draft, trade down, add a second rounder. Draft an edge, then a WR with one of the round 2 picks and then get a developmental QB (even if you have to trade back up) like Nussmieir, Rourke, Allar, or someone similar to Jones to develop for two seasons. In round three, get a DT (Morgan has drafted well later in the draft, so we could add another ILB. On defense, we get Wonnum back and Brown returns. Wallace is a year older, and we added a DT. Horn and Jackson are solid CBs, Smith-Wade??? not sure. So we are not far off. If we draft Ward, it is another high risk high reward situation. It does not give us that added second rounder or the ability to draft that edge we need so badly. Jones' stock is down, but if you do your homework, you understand that he needs protection and weapons, perhaps more than most QBs. This year, defenses are not worried about Tracy and the other RB who are each averaging under 50 yards per game. Saquan Barkely is gone. Here, he has a stocked garage at RB, developing weapons at WR and TE, and a good OL. When that happened in the past (albeit on a lesser scale) Jones was the #7 ranked passer from the pocket--and he has mobility and speed at 6'5". He is currently 28. Just sayin. Now if someone responds by saying "Jones sucks!" It means you did not read this. Jones comes back to his hometown. Its a damn Disney movie!

My rule (but nobody listens!!) is to never give a second contract to a RB--this one is decent. Always remember, contracts are not rewards--they are for expected future performance, everyone! On offense, with Brooks, Chuba could earn this contract--so I will hold my breath. I also think we have all the pieces in place--except a QB==on offense.

dawgs

I saw that too--but I want to give credit where it is due. I he gets waived or put on the PS---nobody is picking him up. Gotta bring it every down, but that was surprising and I think we owe it to each other and ourselves to be as objective as we can regarding opinions. If it were up to me, I would cut him---fwiw

I think this is spot on. The difference, in my opinion, is QB. In 2022, Jones was QB 9 and Daboll and the Giants seemed like they were back. A decent OL, good WRs, and a solid Running game. In 2023, the Giants had some injuries to the OL and it was terrible--worse than our OL. WRs were terrible. No real TE. Barkley was it. Jones was pressured from the pocket as much as Bryce Young and Fields. This season, Jones is QB 7 in the NFL when throwing from a clean pocket; during the offseason, Shoen tried to revamp the OL like we did and instead of going after a QB in the draft, decided WR was a bigger need and drafted Nabers, hoping the OL improvement and the stud WR would make Jones better. But they lost the running game (Barkley). A few OL injuries here and there and a bit of underperformance, and Jones is facing new demons--nobody is afraid of Tracy or Singletary, NY's top 2 running backs--even if you include their receiving yardage--they cannot best Barkley's rushing yards alone in Philly. All that to make 2 points: Jones is a top 7 QB (according to the stats) when throwing from a clean pocket. The Panthers are 32nd in the league in the area of pressuring the passer. With injuries to the OL, no TE threats to speak of (21 receptions combined), a weak running game, Daboll is on the hot seat; there is even talk of Benching Jones for Drew Lock. Expect Jones to have a better day vs. the Panthers than he would most other teams. He can run (we can't get off the field on third downs). We will have to blitz (knowing that he is deadly from a clean pocket) and that could create throwing lanes and running lanes for Jones. I expect Jones to have a good day against us. Having said that, considering the success of Darnold and Mayfield, Jones is only 28. He has a big cap figure, and if the Giants decide to move on from him (remember, when he had better WRs, linemen, running game, and WRs as he did in 2022, Jones was good and got a big contract. This might be a game where we can observe Jones to see if he might be a good fit here. He is 6'5" and 230 and mobile. Smart, but he tends to hold the ball too long at times (no WR open, no TEs, and no running game)--understandable. The Panthers, however, could give him all he needs to be successful. (I know some of you are screaming, "No! He sucks!" I think he is perfect for our system. We need to add a WR. Sanders needs to continue to develop and maybe we need another good TE. The OL? Maybe we grab a center. Not sure what is going on with Ickey. In other words, he would be really good with a strong running game, clean pocket, and weapons. We could trade for him (picking up a player with a big contract that the team is trying to unload is not giving up a lot), then we could trade back a bit in the draft and get a WR and Edge rusher. His salary is about $20m after bonuses, etc. Shoen and Morgan have a relationship. We could then draft someone like Allar, Nussmieir, Beck, Ewers, Rourke, Dart,etc. to groom behind Jones, who would have 2 years on his contract. Just a thought. Instead of reaching for another #1 or #2 overall rookie QB, we get an established QB who could be much better here, enabling us to move back in the draft to add a second rounder or late first. We could draft a C with the second, second round draft pick. This is not as exciting as taking Ward or Sanders, but it might be smarter.

this observation is going make me very popular on the Huddle--can't wait for the love and positive reactions. It is about the QB school video here and something my eagle-like eye noticed--not about Bryce. About Ian Thomas. I was not watching him, but there were a few plays I saw him as a flanker or something and he went in motion and blocked the edge. Twice I was watching Bryce and the overall protection, and I said to myself, "Self, who the hell was that motioning over and manhandling that Edge rusher?" At first i was like, "No way!" Then I saw him do something similar again. A TE in motion stonewalling an edge is no small feat. Watch the tape again and tell me what you think. I did not watch him the entire time--but he caught my eye when I was watching something else. Like when you are at the beach and inspecting a 6, wondering if she is possibly a 7 in the right lighting, and a 9 cuts in front of you. You are like, "Dang."

yes. I want to hear from the "Morgan Sucks" crowd on how many draft picks that contribute (remember, we did not have a first rounder and our second rounder #2 has yet to play--so basically, with no first rounder to trade, he got a stud WR, a stud RB (tbd), a solid ILB (raw), a solid TE, and a developmental CB. Coker is a keeper. That is a good haul, folks. If we can do this again, the foundation will form. I think I read somewhere that a good draft has 3 players contributing (starting, rotating in) within 2 years. If Morgan can draft as well as he did this year on day 2 and 3, that will be huge. I also like getting a fourth for Mingo and a seventh. Mingo got beat out by a practice squad rookie.

Hear me out--cause I got lotsa 'splaining to do. Doing some bottom fishing. This guy is 6'3" and runs a 4.45 40. gonna come back to that later. He is not on anyone's draft radar. However, I am thinking QB3, special teams, and possibly a pass-catching TE. Taysom Hill, you ask? I dunno. Maybe. However, his QB fundamentals (based on this website) are interesting in that he could be a dual threat option at QB. His height and speed make me curious about other positions--a slot WR or wide TE--depends on his hands, but he has the tools. Anytime you get a QB to play another position, they are intelligent--they understand the game better than other players. Can he catch? Is he a developmental QB who can play special teams? Here is what they say about him--as a QB. I am also going to show his qb measures. Scouting Report: Summary A gunslinger with wheels, King brings an explosive element to the quarterback position that will have NFL scouts salivating. His ability to stress defenses both vertically with his cannon arm and horizontally with his 4.4 speed makes him a scheme-diverse prospect. King's quick release and ability to deliver strikes from various arm angles will translate well to the next level, where getting the ball out quickly is paramount. However, King is still a work in progress in terms of consistency and decision-making. His tendency to play "hero ball" leads to turnovers, and he'll need to learn when to take the check-down or throw the ball away. His frame is also a concern, as he'll need to add bulk to withstand the rigors of an NFL season. King's accuracy on short and intermediate throws must improve for him to become a complete NFL quarterback. King profiles as a high-ceiling, developmental prospect who could benefit from time in an NFL quarterback room. His rare physical tools and playmaking ability make him an intriguing project for teams with established veteran quarterbacks. FWIW, King is the 22nd rated QB on NFLDraftBuzz.

You are right to target DT---our DTs are on skates. Brown and another stud would allow us to bring along edge rushers and get by without studs on the outside. In my view, a DT who can collapse the pocket and keep the qb in front of him is more valuable than a stud Edge (would you rather have a Chris Jones or a Bosa? To me, Brown and a stud DT would make the edge rushers and ILBs better.

This says a lot about Coker

Our DTs have been bad.

I think there are some QBs in this draft who could be good NFL QBs in the right situation--like SF was for Purdy. Here, we have the pieces in place for a tall QB with some mobility--I really like Rourke. I like Allar. I see the Ohio St QB being decent. Rourke and IU play Michigan next week--that will be a good test--momentum game.