Loyalty4Life

I would love for the Huddle to give all these snow flake Bryce lovers their own thread.  That way they can have their circle of love and sing Kumbaya.  Anyone who can't see the guy is a complete bust by now is just blind.  

If he's so great, tell me how many Superbowl rings does he have?  I'll wait.

Psych. Not.  He sucks.  Bet.  You are all just stupid.

I'm not trying to be mean here and I say this all out of love for my fellow Panther fans.  Does anyone want a milkshake and their very own thread?  You can love it and squeeze it and call it George.

3 minutes ago, frankw said:

I got through what I could of this word salad. Parts of it you are somewhat coherent. The rest? Ehhhh. You are honestly just riffing off classic talking points about Cam that he proved untrue years ago.

I remember hearing one of my favorite football x's and o's guy, Greg Cosell, say EXACTLY that word salad and almost every word is true.

I love Cam, then and now but anyone who thinks he could throw with anticipation is too far gone for anyone to help.  He was a see open receiver and throw a rocket at him so hard that defenders could not catch up to it.  Cam was never Tom Brady, Drew Brees or any other QB that works off timing patterns and throwing to a spot long before the receiver gets there.  

I do think the lack of paragraphs really held some people back.    

11 minutes ago, Growl said:

ahhhh I’m starting to see what the real agenda against Bryce is here

to my point, there are absolutely things that Young does well that the Facebook rabble of this board isn’t going to comprehend but incredible for where he is at as a player-and yes-outpace where Newton was at. 
 

the effiency of movement that Bryce has dwarfs Cam, who generally labored to do anything concisely and thus he to be relied upon as a battering ram in short yardage situations. There’s a rampant myth that Rivera “ruined” Cam by running him in goal to go situations but the reality is is that Cam simply was not quick enough in tight field scenarios to routinely make those throws. They utilized his skillset and what he did well like a good coach should. Young has been excellent in those scenarios and the elasticity allows him to get it out even quicker. Cam was always a see it throw it kind of QB-something Young already does at a high level. Again, Facebook fans may not value it-but layering the ball (again, something Cam seldom did, as he generally had to rifle every ball into windows to compensate for the delay, ultimately putting a lot of strain on his shoulder) into a window before the receiver even gets there is an elite trait that scouts beg for for a guy at this stage in his career. There’s also the body control-most of Cam’s offlooks were scripted or preplanned and generally just revolves around a rapid fire headfake that seldom did its job. Bryce not only organically looks off DBs, but incorporâtes his shoulders into the bait, and-will use general pocket movement to shift defensive linemen so that he can work back to a more desirable side. He isn’t just moving away from pressure-He is literally moving the entire defense away from where he wants the ball to go. This is where the Brees comparison came from in college: this is such a rare trait, and it’s starting my to manifest at the next level. 
 

i get that most fans generally cannot perceive most of what they’re watching, but when you’re outright proud of how little you know I begin to have a problem. Every time I see someone make a processor “joke” and then follow it up by blathering on about NEED TO SEE THE BOMB I cringe 

 

Are you in my brain?  Can we be best friends?

13 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It seems like the entire organization was just completely blind to how much work we needed. They bought their own hype that was literally only coming from within their own echo chamber.

Bam. Boom. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.  This has been my biggest gripe next to Frank's playcalling.  The worst part is that they were really blind to how much work Bryce (or any rookie QB) needs.  You don't drop a college freshmen into graduate level courses no matter how many A's they got in high school.

I posted this in the game day thread.

Look at what is coming at Bryce as he throws the deep pass to Chark.  Look at Tua on the right and what kind of pocket he has on this deep throw for a TD to Reek.  I'll give you a hint.  All the guys in white jerseys are closer to the QB and all the guys in blue jerseys are farther away.

The bottom two panels are how these guys are able to follow through on their throws.  Being able to follow through on deep passes is crucial for accuracy and power. 

Tua even shows off by holding that follow through for like 5 seconds after the pass while no Panther ever gets within 5 feet of him.

2 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

Bryce is perfect, everyone else sucks.  Only view you can have on this forum

Bryce is no where near perfect and I've said this before in other threads.  It's not critiques of Bryce that are maddening.  It's the lack of fully understanding what's going on and WHY things are happening that makes my brain hurt.

Bryce needs to be much better at throwing the ball away.  I'd love to see Bryce show some more emotional and fire.  He needs to slow down and thinking he can do all the things Frank has asked him to do at this point in his career.  

He can do a much, much better job at taking what the defense gives him.  Sometimes you just have to take the L instead of trying to pull off some magic.

There have been a lot of plays where I think he should take off and run.  It should be automatic that after 2 hitches if there is green grass in front of you, run and if you can't throw it away.

He has shown a tendency to throw just behind his receivers at times.  I don't know if that's scheme, technique breakdown or what but it happens to often.

He does not have the biggest arm but he has an average NFL arm to make all the throws in the NFL.  Look at the one in that JT video where you have the 2 posts on the right and Chark running the over.  Bryce throws it on a frozen rope 25 yards with accuracy and zip.

Part of his magic is also a curse because he throws a lot like a shortstop or baseball player.  He's able to generate power and accuracy without using some basic fundamentals and generating power from the ground up.  When he does have to throw deep he will have to throw with proper form because he doesn't have a cannon for an arm and can't flick with his wrist 40 yards.  But, this ability also allows him to throw off platform and at crazy angles and it also allows him to get rid of the ball hella quickly when he needs to.  This could also be part of the problem when he's throwing behind players.

For all his talent at reading presnap, he sure does leave some obvious blitzes to come in easily.  JT also showed a great instance of this when he got lit up in the redzone because we shifted the blocking to the weak side and Bryce looked to the weak side where we only had two possible routes.  He has to see how vulnerable that leaves him and either pull in some additional blockers or have a checkdown or at least take a glance at where the most obvious place the pressure might come from.  You always need a plan for a possible free blitzer and Bryce misses those a lot more then he should.  I expect him to be smarter and more aware of some of those obvious situations. 

Good grief.  JT has said it in virtually every video he's done of Bryce.  The Panthers, no matter what PR BS they told the media before the season, are not putting Bryce in position to showcase what he can do.

I honestly don't know if he can throw the deep ball in the NFL because the combination of playcalling, oline protection and offensive scheme are not setting up those opportunities.    No team just decides, hey we need to take some deep shots and randomly throws some into the gameplan. 

You have to be able to protect your QB and have the time to throw them.  I should say that x3.

Even in the play to Chark when Chark beat his man our oline could not pick up the stunt which we have struggled with all year and Bryce has a free runner right in his face.  JT was exactly right, he threw it and quickly bailed to protect himself because of the rushing d-linemen we didn't block at all coming full speed right at him. 

Getting lit up numerous times already each game and twice really badly earlier in that game is going to make anyone not want to lineup for another killshot.  

The first two hard hits he never saw coming but this one was easy for him to see.  On one hand I'd love for him to take the hit and throw a good pass.  On the other hand that's a good way to get seriously injured.  These guys are human.  I don't want my QB taking unblocked killshots unless it's playoffs or Superbowl. 

What I really want is for the freakin oline to not get beat like a drum.  Yeah, we've got backups at both guards spots and a line that isn't built for zone scheme pass blocking.  Here's a hell of an idea.  Don't go 5 wide.  Keep some extra guys in to block more often.  I know Frank wants to go all super WCO passing 80% of the time with 10 receivers all running routes and Bryce left alone to fend for himself.  It a miracle they leave him 5 blockers.

I fully expect us in our next game to use a lot more 2 TE sets.  Give Bryce more protection.  Run more to set up the pass.  When the run game is going and you're running out of heavier sets it's much easier to take long shots because you have more guys to block, teams worry about the run more and it's hella easy to move the pocket and roll Bryce out away from pressure and slide the line that way.  

There are all kinds of things from a scheme and playcalling standpoint we can do so that Bryce isn't left out on an island so f'n' much.  Frank wants his scheme to work so bad he's overlooking the fact that it's actually a detriment to Bryce and the team, not to mention we don't have the personal to run it.

23 minutes ago, frankw said:

Nicole Tepper avatar lol. The boot licking knows no bounds for some.

Hey, if every time I post anything good about Bryce it's meet with cat calls calling me Nicole might as well fit the part. 

Funny thing is I bet 95% of people on her and most of whom have made those types of comments would not even have known that was her.  It's elite level trolling, not boot licking.  <grin>

I remember a very involved aggressive owner who decided to fire a future HOF coach early on and hire a guy he really liked. 

The guy had just been fired by the freakin Browns but was under contract to be the head coach of the JETS but that owner was hyper aggressive and refused to give up.  League commish got invoved and Robert Kraft ended up losing the 16th overall pick that year plus a 4th and 7th rounder for being a bad owner and a 5th and 7th rounder to the Jets to get Bill Belichek for his coach.

I can imagine Panther fans if Tepper traded all that for a coach which actually could have ended up happening had we really went after Sean Payton. 

1 hour ago, lightsout said:

Nonsense. 

 

We had Julius Peppers who....left and went elsewhere.

But we also had Steve Smith who...left and played somewhere else.

And we had Double Trouble, and THEY...each left and played somewhere else.

And then we did have Luke who...retired early but absolutely could've played somewhere else.

And then DJ Moore and CMC....who.... y'know I see a pattern.

It's a huge problem.  It's spread to virtually every other NFL team.  It been going on since 1993.

28 minutes ago, Car123 said:

60 air yards

He has the arm…

Based on what? 

An actual video is him doing it.  Phish, well, I guess that's good enough for some people but I'm not buying it.  Guy has a noodle arm and can't make NFL throws. 

10 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

lmao

 

This is why I love the huddle. You guys are hilarious!

I have often been accused of being highly entertaining. 

I'm 48 years old and I'm either arguing with other old dudes with nothing better to do on a Sunday while watching sucky football and looking for slivers of hope or some 12 year old in his basement smelling his own farts and laughing at me.

It is what it is.

It sucks but I'm not all broken up about it.

If we kept Rhule, we'd have kept CMC and Moore.  It's would be part 6 of the last 5 years.  We'd have another retread QB.

I'd rather be 0-17 then to have kept Rhule but even with Rhule does anyone think with a journeyman below average QB, CMC, Moore and this past years 1st rounder we'd be in this position?

If we had not traded up we'd have all that and still finish with 7-8 wins if we're lucky stuck in mediocrity.  I'd rather take a shot after shot to be great even if they keep ending up in disaster.  Better than settling for status quo of a bottom 10 team year in and year out.

9 minutes ago, Day1PanthersFan said:

We would have been better off giving Rhule another season 

I am curious to whom he'd have picked for our QB after Teddy, Sam and Baker.  

I think he'd have traded for Trubisky or maybe Cooper Rush.

14 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Wtf?

Man, either join the discussion or STFU.  Your one liners from the peanut gallery to half of my posts today are all insulting or passive aggressive and antagonistic.

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

But are there any current cutting edge offenses overseen by some offensive dinosaur like Frank though? 

everything is a bad marriage here.  Which point to the lack of vision and direction at the top.  Just a bunch of random parts smashed together.  

Can definitely see your point there too.  It's why you can't buy a championship every year in Baseball no matter how much money you have although the Yankees have actually pulled it off a number of times.

Tepper and most think that if you buy the best parts and hire the best people that will equal success.  The only time that really worked was the NBA dream team.

Tepper didn't do anything his first 2 years except learn and then he took all that knowledge and hired Rhule and allowed him to implement his full vision (much to our sorrow).  As an answer to that he fired Rhule 2.5 years into a 7 year deal and proceeded to hire the best staff money and NFL experience could pull together. 

Shows how incredibly hard it is to do but I still have a lot of faith it can turn into something really good.

I think Frank can be a really good NFL coach and a good Panthers coach.  He's built an excellent staff and I think he's good with players and dealing with other personal.  One of the biggest reasons he was hired was because of his experience and inside track on getting other coaches to come here.  Highly desirable coaches.  Deuce was the assistant head coach/ running backs coach.  Thomas Brown was McVay's right hand man, an Assistant Head coach / running backs / tight ends coach.  The Broncos did not want to lose Evero but he forced his way out and came to Carolina.  The connection there is Dom Capers was a senior defensive assistant on Evero's staff in Denver.  He of course was the Panthers first coach and Frank's coach.  All of these coaches are very good and highly sought after.  Frank had a huge hand is how and why they decided to come to Carolina.  Tepper also played a large part in that he's never selfish in spending his own money, many, many times overspending, to get Carolina their guy.

He has largely let Evero control and run the defense but probably has had some input into the type of defense he wanted, the philosophy, etc.  He needs to do the same with the offense.  The problem on defense is not coaching, it's injuries and execution.  We simply don't have the talent level to complete for a whole game. 

A good coach knows what he doesn't know and allows people who are better suited to run specific things.

If Reich wanted to be the OC and playcaller that is fine but that is the job he should have applied for.  He built a great staff, now it's time to be a head coach and a head coach only and trust the guys he picked to do their job.

13 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Ok.  I understand that.  But we've also seen enough football in our lifetimes to see enough examples of seeing players demonstrate time and again that they are not NFL starter material. Now, how often did franchises waste years of assets and resources trying everything in their power to make that not the case once they clearly saw the mistake they made, making the hole they already were in deeper and deeper?

Brother, we have a former Pro Bowler in Chark, a damn good proven receiver in Thielen, a 2nd rounder invested in Mingo, and all of that was invested this year to help Bryce.  As soon as Bryce started to show signs of struggle, Chark and Thielen all of sudden were horrible according to the masses at the sacrificial altar of Bryce.  The poo is ridiculous.  Then I pointed out Thielen is the best slot statistically in the league, and you say it's further evidence the rest of the cast is part of the problem.  You think me pointing out his struggles is biased, but you literally, despite using objective language, are biased skewing in favor of Bryce, and that's evident in the discussion about Thielen and the supporting cast...  with all due respect.

So, while I understand the process and letting it play out, the facts are, we have already poured a ton of resources into this project.  We already completely pushed all of our chips in the table and sold out to make things as optimal as we could for Bryce coming into his rookie year.  And now all of a sudden our OL sucks ass?  Our receivers suck ass?  Our RBs are ass?  Everything is ass but Bryce.  I understand he is a rookie, but we're seeing him struggle with basic things you expect of a starting-level QB in the NFL despite all of the resources our franchise has poured into making him successful as a rookie.  That is not encouraging at all.  And despite babysteps made in his development, we have not had one "Ah-Ha" moment where collectively we can all say, "now that is why we drafted him #1 overall!"

So yes, we can give him two full years, but when a guy can't make basic NFL throws because he lacks the ability to, that has nothing to do with the staff or talent around him.  If you try ten times, I expect you to come close at least once, and he doesn't...  that doesn't come with time or development.  The stuff he is missing is evident because you either can do it from day one, or you can't.  AR and Stroud might not test well, and they might not have the greatest anticipation ever, but if a guy flashes open 25 yards downfield, they can get it to him with the flick of a wrist and complete it.  Bryce cannot and has not.  And when defenses play you like you can't, that tends to make everything else harder- they get super aggressive with blitzes and load the box on the run because they don't have to defend anything 20+ yards downfield or anything on the sidelines...  so by default, him playing puts us at a disadvantage because defense don't have to play the entire field and essentially can compress it down to 15 x 15 yard box bases off the throws he is comfortable and capable of making.  This is evident in his passing charts.  It's fact.  And yet, we have people blaming everyone but him for why every facet of our offense looks so dysfunctional.  It is incredible the amount of denial in defense of him.  

Again, I wanted him to succeed regardless if I wanted him to eb the pick or not, because our success was dependent on his success.  I would be fuging ecstatic if he miraculously turned it around and found Mike's secret stuff over the bye week and came out looking like what we wanted and expect from a #1 overall pick...  hell, I'd even settle for a 4th round pick at this point.  But, again,all of the red flags are there that this is trending to be a bust.  

But ok...  give him two years so we can see more of what most who have watched football their whole lives already know.  Again, I would love to be wrong, and would be the first to happily admit I am if he could turn it around...  but I'm confident that he won't because of what we're seeing.  

Yes, we and every NFL coach, player, and scout has seen enough football in our lifetimes to THINK we know what is and isn't NFL starter material yet we and every expert no matter the level of experience have been 100% wrong.

The list of guys who everyone expected to be great and busted along with every player people said wasn't any good but turned out to be a baller is a very, very long list.

Going extreme is either direction is harmful.  You don't hang on to Bryce and keep trying to make him work if he doesn't turn into the franchise QB after 3,4,5, 6 or however long is too long.  I don't know how much time might be too long to beat a dead horse but I do not it's not a few weeks after it's born.  Calling for the glue factory when Bryce is still in training wheels is crazy.

You say if he tries 10 times and doesn't come close (referring to his deep passing completions) then that is so bad no amount of practice can fix that.  I would tend to agree if you nothing else affected or causes his throws to be off target.

We know our receivers have struggled in getting seperation on the routes and concepts the coaches are calling.  We know we don't have much of a run game to take pressure off Bryce.  We know the Oline isn't consistently pass blocking well and giving him time to make good throws.  

I showed actual screen grabs from Young's "overthrow" to Chark and from Tua's TD pass to Hill.  You can easily see the difference in protection and the ability for the QB to follow through with good technique.  Bryce has a free rusher coming right at him before he even throws the ball and then the pressure from that linemen as well as another or busted through causes Bryce to throw it early, off timing and he's not able to follow through at all.  He ends up doing kind of a full 360 spin leaning back and take a hit.

Tua has zero pressure, great form and stands there holding the following through like a boss for like 5 seconds after he throws it.  No one ever got remotely close to him.

Now, this is one instance but I have not seen Bryce is a remotely similar situation that Tua had and STILL overthrow his WR.

You are 100% right on how defenses are playing Bryce and how that severely limits his play.  Where we disagree is why defenses are playing Bryce like that.  Is it his inability to make those throws due to arm strength, intelligence, accuracy or is it caused by other factors like no run game, WR's getting separation, play calling, scheme, etc.

I just proved in my example above that for that play Bryce did not have enough time because of the rush, was pressured when he made the throw and could not use good technique and follow through to have good accuracy.  

We saw 100% proof in the first quarter that with a good run game to allow him more time and a clean pocket he can throw some lasers.  He's shown touch on the ball when he needs it and the ability to throw a dart as well.  The TD pass to Theilen was a laser and had some really, really nice zip on the ball.  It was a rocket and was thrown a little high to get it over the top of the defender.  Thielen made a great catch cause that ball was moving.  I've watched almost all of his games more than once and seen the all 22 on a few.

He's making some NFL level highly skilled throws and I can go back and show you tons of them.  He has the ability.  I can also show you horrible throws he's had but they usually happen due to other factor and his bad decisions.  He does have more throws that are not leading his targets enough and for whatever reason are a hair behind his receiver but I've seen that less and less each game so I think that's just a matter of him getting used to NFL windows, his receivers, etc. 

When you go back and look at his film it's pretty easy to tell the passes and decisions that are 100% his fault.  Holding onto the ball to long leading to fumbles or not seeing a defender or anticipating a defender like in both his int in the ATL game.

If we were the 49ers and Bryce was playing like this I'm be hella worried.  Bryce is not playing great but he's a rookie, he's got a reason.  The rest of the team are also playing badly and making it even harder for Bryce.  Those other players have been around.  They have NFL experience.  These coaches have been around and have tons of experience so it just so happens that every aspect of the team needs to be better and is subpar but we can fully say Bryce is the problem and can't/won't make it as a successful NFL QB.

NFL QB gets way too much glory when you win and way too much hate when you lose.  For some reason the Huddle seems to times that by 100 and will probably do it both wins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GxYF9lieQk

I think Frank can be a very good coach but his ego won't let him be just a head coach.  He insists on trying to be both Head coach and OC.  His stubborn refusal to give up playcalling is holding this team back so much.  You can already see the cutting edge offenses of today and the way they are being ran are way outside of what he wants to be and maybe even what he can envision.  The details of advanced offenses in today NFL has somewhat passed him by. 

That does mean he can't understand it conceptually or even design great plays around newer idea and concept but in the heat of battle when you calling plays you're going to default to what you're used to, to what you're comfortable with, to what you are familar with.  Frank is most comfortable in an older NFL offense.

We've seen Bryce go to extremes to seemingly audible out of every play called by Frank.  We seen Reich admit mistakes to personal and in getting the play into Bryce quickly.  You can't be a good head coach and a good OC and call plays on Sunday.  You'll end up not being able to really be good at one of them because you're tying to do all of them.

In today Miami game we had a great 1st quarter.  The first 15 plays or so are always scripted in an NFL game.  They are created by the brain trust.  It doesn't matter who actually calls them into the QB.  But after that it's up to the coach calling the plays to decide what to call.  We scored 2 TDs, moved the ball, ran it great, passed it great.  Looked like the team we all expected us to be.

It won't solve all the Panthers problems but in my mind it's currently the biggest things holding us back.  Frank are not putting the players in the best position to excel.  More and more it's looking like a classic case of scheme over personal in concept but also in how, when and why the plays are being called.

For all Frank's talk of team he's the lone wolf holding out.

To quote Singletary, "I feel that a great coach is one that has a vision, sets a plan in place, has the right people in place to execute that plan and then accepts the responsibility if that plan is not carried out."

Cast of elite coaches took an extremely intelligent rookie QB and started treating him like Tom Brady on day 1.  They took a high school student with a 4.0 GPA and straight A and gave him advance quantum mechanics from a graduate program.  And only 1 person can call the plays and that man is Frank Reich.  How good we were on script to start the game today just adds fuel to that fire IMHO.  

"Each era has the fatal hubris to believe that it has once and for all climbed to the top of the mountain and can see everything as it is, from the highest and most objective vantage point possible."

Tepper's fault for picking Rhule and giving him unlimited input, money, resources and control.

Rhule's fault for picking Teddy,Sam and Baker and being a college coach in every decision he made.

Fitt's fault for being exactly the type of consensus building GM Tepper is asking for and for successfully getting all the bad players the coaches begged for.  (Fitt needs to be given final say on roster building.)

Reich's fault to getting an all star cast of coaches and then calling the plays he wants and for treating Bryce like a 4 year vet instead of a rookie.

5 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

They wanted a point guard, they got a point guard.  In the right offense, Bryce could be very good.  In an offense that's about taking shots down field and going vertical versus horizontal...he'll bust.

I see our offense as exactly the opposite.  We are trying to be much more of a West Coast Spread type offense.  Our favorite formation are 1x3.  We throw a ton of passes to receivers who are practically behind the line of scrimmage. 

Reich never meet a mesh route he didn't love.  Not taking shots or going vertical is a huge problem but it's not at all our offense.  As you say Bryce's skill set is not be having a huge arm and taking deep shots.  Of course he'd bust in that type of offense.  In the offense we're trying to build, conceptually, he'll thrive which is why I agree with you that in the right offense, he'll be very good.

16 minutes ago, Varking said:

Not saying you, but if folks don't have the time then they shouldn't waste the time with childish insults at one another anyway. Its better time management to not reply at all if all you they can comment at others is insults. 

Oh, I agree with you.  I have the time today which is why I'm debating but if you want to quote other posters then at least have the ability to back it up or explain their opinion. 

I'm not talking about you.  That previous comment was more directed at Mr. Completely who doesn't want to bother with how or why he thinks Bryce doesn't have an NFL arm.  He just want to keep calling me "Nicole" when I share my opinion or say he doesn't want to waste his time debating or defending his opinion.

If guys just wanna take shots with stupid comments, go right ahead.  No problem with that but then actually engage in the topic or start a warning thread about how Zod is looking at those Bryce hopefuls who are being too mean to the massive amount of chicken little's with their hot takes.

3 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I get that, I really do, but brother I am here to tell you I have watched the nfl for decades and Young is simply not a nfl qb.  What does he do well that separates him?  He isnt athletic and he cannot scramble when the play collapses. 

 

Am I calling him a bust, nah, not even sure what criteria you would even use but I am saying he doesnt have "it" to be a to 15 nfl qb and my man we gave up a lot for that

He is very accurate on short to intermediate routes.  He processes the play very quickly and finds the open receiver.  He has a quick release.  Is very calm in the pocket and doesn't panic.  Has a nice zip on his balls.  Very good leader and locker room guy.  Very high football IQ and learns from his mistakes.

Has a very innate ability to throw off platform and with different arm angles.  Very mobile in the pocket and keeps his head up looking down field when he does scramble.

He showed with the Panthers first two drives today with the balance of a good run game and play calling he can excel.  As he continues to improve and improve his chemistry with other receivers not named Adam Thielan he shows a lot of potential to be a quality starter in the NFL.

The Panthers have done him very few favors to allow him to showcase his abilities but if he's able to weather and overcome suspect coaching, a lack of weapons and the early storms that every young Qb has to go through then the sky is the limit.

3 minutes ago, Varking said:

I think folks can be optimistic but theres been a massive trend the past two weeks of folks just slinging around personal attacks on each other instead of debating the arguments. 

I love debating the arguments but not everyone has the time to waste.