Loyalty4Life

28 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

 

how about this year

 

CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	LNG	RTG
92	153	60.1	820	5.4	4	6	46	66.9

Yes, absolutely but I would throw out the first two games except to say that is how bad he started out.  If I'm Canales I'm looking forward from that. 

What is different?

Did sitting and watching improve him in any ways?  Confidence, becoming more familiar with the system, a new coaching staff, new players?

Since that reset Canales and Morgan have repeatedly said they have a plan for Bryce.  We've seen that plan over the last three games and we've seen improvement.  That is literally all I'm looking for at this stage.  Is he improving each week?  Is the team growing?  Is a culture developing.

Ya'll keep acting like I'm trying to convince you Bryce Young is great and has no flaws or that he's ready right now to lead us to the playoffs and super bowls.  All I'm saying and keep repeating is give Canales a chance to do what he did with Geno and Baker and enjoy a win without poo posting.

20 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

bryce literaly did nothing in the offseason except watch netflix and go to LIDS

https://www.panthers.com/news/bryce-young-ready-to-get-back-to-work-grow-as-a-leader

Sigh.  Literally the very next paragraph, you cherry picking troll.

5 minutes ago, strato said:

Naming the QBs that struggled is the same thing as saying oh Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman had horrible rookie years, and applying that to Young as if he is those guys... when they were prototypical prospects and Young is a total outlier physically. 

And saying it without acknowledging that plenty of horrible mistakes had bad rookie seasons, and just stayed horrible. 

I've said that over and over.  Bryce may very well be exactly what we are seeing.

I've also repeatedly said that my argument isn't really about BW.  Pick any widget.  Pick any player. I would not bet my job on any evaluation based on last year.  I think that our coaching staff, players (especially oline) and scheme (Frank's was beyond awful) are better than last years.  Then we trot Bryce out in the first two games and he played HORRIBLE.  BAD.  YUCK. 

Based on those first two games he regressed greatly from his rookie year.  So, Canales benches him to see if he can fix him and begin to put him on a path toward improvement.  Canales was hired in part because of his work with similar QB's who struggled.  Canales saw he was horrible.  Benched him.  Realized he had some things from his rookie year he needed to undo.  He developed a plan and path that is in progress now to see if he could turn into something.  All I keep saying is let's find out.  Beats riding out the year with Dalton or some random UDFA and man what if Canales does do what he did with Geno or Baker? 

Geno was so bad he was a back up for 7 years.  We got Baker because no one else, except Matt Rhule, wanted him and even when we did get him the Browns paid most of his contract.

16 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

This fuging guy 

Yeah, it's hard for me not to act like an asshole considering the entire thread begin as a troll job and one that has been beat to death to the point that a lot of fans here complain about so much it's almost like an inside joke.

9 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

and you said dozens as if its totally commonplace for poo qbs to turn things around.  keep posting

My whole point is finding even a decent NFL QB is hard.  No reason to give up on one with potential until you find someone better.  Throw out his rookie year.  If anything it hurt him as I think we can all agree the first 2 games of the year he looked and played the worst football of his NFL career.  Judge him like a rookie in Canales's system from week 8 on.

Here are more.  All of these are not mirror copies of Bryce.  My argument is the NFL is hard and the path to being a quality NFL starter isn't always a straight one and guys can get better, especially guys who work hard and are willing to learn like Bryce.

Alex Smith,  Rich Gannon, Vinny Testaverde, Jim Plunkett, Brett Favre, Ryan Tannehill, Doug Williams, Tommy Maddox, Jake Plummer, Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Geno Smith.

7 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

dozens you said

I don't want to go to fast for you.
 

Here is number three and it might be the worst start for a HOF QB ever who went on to win multiple superbowls.
 

1970:

• Starts: 8
• Record: 3-5
• Passing: 1,410 yards
• Completion %: 38.1%
• Touchdowns: 6
• Interceptions: 24

1971:

• Starts: 13
• Record: 5-8
• Passing: 2,259 yards
• Completion %: 47.7%
• Touchdowns: 13
• Interceptions: 22

Combined two-year totals:

• Record: 8-13
• Passing: 3,669 yards
• Touchdowns: 19
• Interceptions: 46
• Passer Rating: 36.1 (1970), 54.9 (1971)

Our next contestant was so bad the team drafted another first round QB after only 2 seasons but this short stack still went on to improve and become one the NFL's best passers.

2002:

• Starts: 16
• Record: 8-8
• Passing: 3,284 yards
• Completion %: 60.8%
• Touchdowns: 17
• Interceptions: 16

2003:

• Starts: 11
• Record: 2-9
• Passing: 2,108 yards
• Completion %: 57.6%
• Touchdowns: 11
• Interceptions: 15

Combined two-year totals:

• Record: 10-17
• Passing: 5,392 yards
• Touchdowns: 28
• Interceptions: 31
• Passer Rating: 67.5

6 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

dozens of other qbs?  please list these dozens that have started as bad as bryce but turned it around

1985:

• Starts: 5
• Record: 1-4
• Passing: 935 yards
• Completion %: 52.2%
• Touchdowns: 8
• Interceptions: 7

1986:

• Starts: 14
• Record: 2-12
• Passing: 2,282 yards
• Completion %: 53.7%
• Touchdowns: 8
• Interceptions: 13

Combined two-year totals:

• Record: 3-16
• Passing: 3,217 yards
• Touchdowns: 16
• Interceptions: 20
• Passer Rating: 63.1

This HOF player went on to be traded after his second year and went on to win multiple super bowls.

6 minutes ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

Is he gonna magically grow 5 inches and be able to throw downfield consistently. That has already been answered. No! 

I don't like or put too much stock in answers with excessively different variables.  

59 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

is the horse dead or alive? manage your metaphors please.

no one called this year. the only thing about teams calling was one unsourced tweet from diana russini. there was never any confirmation, any names of teams, nothing. if she got that from anyone, it was likely from the same people paying you to post about bryce. your dignity is worth more than 42k pre tax, buddy.

potential upside: none. he's not growing.

potential downside: injures other players with his terrible play

the offense under bryce is worse statistically than it was last year. or so close it doesn't matter. This is who he is. you are weaving an entire web of bullshit for a guy who's shown across multiple coaching staffs and multiple situations his ceiling about 170 yards a game, 1 td, 1 int, 5 ypa.

toxic optimism is not a positive trait, or something you should be proud of.

If you don't want me to write a novel then don't make me dispute things that easily found.  I just posted the reputable sources who said that teams have called about Bryce.

I won't go out of my way to explain why his play isn't to any degree that other players are worried for their safety outside of the NFL norm.  It would actually be difficult to do that with how little we throw and most of the throws are on the conservative side.  Slants, crossing routes over the top, outs, etc  That is just gaslighting and grasping at straws.

My optimism isn't toxic.  It's realistic. It's lets take the chance to find out.  That is why he is starting games for us.  That is why the Panthers continue to say he is in their future plans although that plan can change quickly.  I'm under no illusion. This entire plan to start Bryce could only be to try to up his trade value from a 4th or 5th rounder to a 3rd.  Very possible and a good idea regardless, in case he doesn't improve.  If we draft a qb and trade Bryce after this year I've got no issue with that.  A full year with Canales is the least I'd expect to really evaluate him and give him a chance with a better system, staff, surrounding players, etc.

Hell, I don't sell stock when it's down especially if there is a probability of it improving or if I can do things to improve it's value.  If Bryce ends up sinking or swims my argument is still the same. 

Ian Rapoport, Jay Glazer, Dianna Russini.

https://thespun.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/report-4-nfl-teams-tried-to-trade-for-bryce-young

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5892177/2024/11/02/nfl-trade-deadline-teams-players/

https://x.com/awfulannouncing/status/1837890344198832222

I realize the team can lie but add Dave Canales and Dan Morgan.

35 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Do think Bryce can get us to a playoff game and win multiple times?   

No.  Not a chance with his current play.

Do I think he could improve to become that.  Yes.  Because the NFL is hard and dozens of other Qb's have some back from starting just as bad and we've got nothing to lose by trying.

4 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

brown was not great his rookie year and deserved the criticism. Chuba was a fourth round pick; no one as was railing him. neither had legions of internet weirdos white knighting them at every opportunity.

Coincidentally since you keep attacking me personally, I was higher on both of those players than the rest of the board and was proven right. Maybe not the best examples to use here.

post people saying XL was a wasted pick. It's not hard. There's a search function. There have been ten weeks of games. was it in the first two weeks when Bryce could barely even get the snap? Did I miss a ton of people upset about him after the game in Las Vegas? Is there another forum where people spent the first 2 weeks of the season dogging him?

 

 

I don't see BW getting white knighted.  I see people beating a dead horse even when that horse shows signs of life. 

I am not and have not said BW is or will be the savior.  I have only argued that his first year had plenty of circumstances that didn't help him and definitely made it harder for him to improve.  So, all in all I give that whole year a wash.

I was hugely disappointed with his first two games this year.  He was awful.  Beyond awful.  We can never win or have any type of chance with a QB playing that badly.  No question.  He deserved to be benched and if it wasn't for the cluster of the entire operation last year, a new coach, new players and new system I wouldn't give much of an argument.  

The fact that he has begun to improve after this benching and that we don't have any other options and his small sample size with Canales as his coach makes me want to see if this could turn out like other QB's who started out badly (see previous list).

That's it.  No savior.  No statement that he is the future of our franchise. Just the best chance we currently have.  Your argument is he sucks and has no value or potential to become a quality starter.

My argument is he's shown flashes, improvement and still has upside if for nothing else than it hasn't been proven for a long enough period of time.  If he plays like this in year 7, no one is even calling.

What is the potential upside?

What is the potential downside?

We are not a good team.  We can't afford to give up on any player too soon especially a high draft pick with a new coach and where his rookie year was a cluster in numerous areas outside of his control that impacted his development.

He may very well be exactly the player you think he is but he might not be.  It's possible he was screwed up by the year of Frank.  Why not try to turn him into a success story?  Tons to gain.  Not much to lose.

9 minutes ago, frankw said:

Hey @Loyalty4Life go compare undrafted Kyle Allen's numbers in 13 games with the Panthers to Bryce Young's numbers in 23 games and come back here and tell us again how this place is ready to cut bait way too early.

Either you work for the team or you're related to Bryce somehow.

Were there circumstances last year that made it more difficult to judge BW?

Was it possible we didn't put him the best situation to improve and grow?

Was it worth not cutting him last year to see how he played under better circumstances?

I have never one said BW's play was excellent or that we should put all our eggs in the BW will be the franchise savior.  If this was his 2nd year with the same staff and in the same system I'd been much less argumentative. 

It's also not just about cutting bait.  It's the BW option right now vs Dalton or an UDFA or anything else we could come up with. 

No one is calling to trade for Kyle Allen.  People don't see the possibility of him improving beyond his current abilities.  Myself, Canales, and at least 4 other teams do see potential and that is all I'm arguing for.

He is currently our best chance for a starting level QB in the future.  It's just a chance.  I'm playing the probabilities with no expectations.  As long as he is improving and we don't have better options why not do everything you can for that player to succeed?

14 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

what the fug are you talking about

you're just making ludicrous, broad generalizations.

like you could provide a single example of anything

I've given examples.

I've seen Chubba Hubbard, Derrick Brown and numerous other Panther players before they broke out get railed on this board and calls for their head.

Before XL started to show some promise I saw lots of takes about how he was a waste of a pick.  We're seeing the trash talk against Brooks who has not even played a down yet and if he struggles at all this season you'll see dozens talking about what a waste of pick he was.

4 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

Oh he’s making it about me. Who’s rereg are you?

Go make a thread about how great Bryce did today. No one is stopping you. 

I didn't make it about you.  You did. 

You made a thread with a headline and first post comment that's a passive aggressive insult that is a continuation of your BW hate fest.  If you don't want any comments, don't make a new thread from the peanut gallery.

I don't think BW had a "great" game today.  I think he had a game that showed improvement and did a number things that helped us win and in our present circumstance of being one of the worst teams in the league. I'd like to enjoy a win.

There is plenty to actually hold Bryce to task for, discuss, and critique.  I've never even argued he's great.  Only that he still has potential after a bad 1st year that had extenuating circumstances.  I 100% agree with Canales benching him.  He was awful.  

Since he's come back he's been our best option and has shown some improvement.  Doesn't mean we won't draft another QB next year or trade him in the off season or keep him and bring in other QB's to compete with.  I love that Canales won't name him the starter each week but keeps making him earn just enough to start the next week.   

Picking your ass and throwing poo nuggets every week at Bryce or any hope fans might have that he could improve is exhausting.  You're just being a troll and an asshole.

4 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

Why do you keep talking about other players in a Bryce young thread 

make a thread about Jalen Coker if you want and see how it goes instead of imagining an outcome and arguing against it

i can promise no one is going to be upset about the production from an UDFA, especially when he’s looking like a steal, especially compared to the biggest draft bust in nfl history. 

Because the subject of this thread is your passive aggressive stance on BW and for the tendency of the huddle to piss on players they conclude are not worth a continued investment based on the current situation. 

It's about fans enjoying this win and coming to the huddle to celebrate that win with fellow panther fans only to see yet another thread from a BW hater that is a backhanded, passive aggressive insult. 

9 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

I like how everyone, in a thread about Bryce young, prefaces their post by saying “I’m not saying he’s good BUT”

I'd be saying the same thing about Coker, XL, Sanders if there were 10 threads a weeks saying how they are not playing well enough to win playoffs games and never will.  No chance. 

If I started a thread about how good XL has looked and what an awesome sideline catch he had only to have 10 people come in yelling about the drop he had and no actual quality NFL receiver could drop a pass that easy to catch we'd have what we have here every week with Bryce.

1 hour ago, raleigh-panther said:

 

i would love to be wrong.  Im not

The fact as to if BW will turn into a quality NFL starter remains to be seen.  Everything else is just opinion.  This list is why I don't want to trade him for a bag of dildos.

Alex Smith
Steve Young
Terry Bradshaw
Drew Brees
Rich Gannon
Vinny Testaverde
Jim Plunkett
Brett Favre
Ryan Tannehill
Doug Williams
Tommy Maddox
Jake Plummer
Josh Allen
Jordan Love

And before anyone starts with the "buts" to illustrate why BW's situation is different I'll add my only contention is that there is a long list of QB's who improve and get better.  The potential upside is huge while the downside of continuing with BW for the rest of this season is very low.  Also, compare that potential to the available alternatives.

This no chance, definitive stance is what drives me crazy.

17 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

We have Dalton and possibly Plummer ATM. Neither are great options. The time to address this was in the off season when we actively chose to not bring in any real competition. Bryce played Josh Rosen level bad last year. 1st pick or not, you can't just hand the starting position to that level of QB play and be taken seriously. After the 1st 2 games he was benched and many were blaming the supporting cast, but then Dalton lit up the Raiders with the same cast. If you're willing to bench him 2 games into the season, you're openly admitting he wasn't ready to be the only option at starter. 

We have no good options right now and that is a huge failure of the FO. We didn't win today because of BY, we won in spite of him. Chuba carried this team. Bryce did nothing extraordinary. He played a game you would expect to see from any backup QB in the league. If the Giants D wasn't so horrible against the run, do you think BY would have been able to put 300 yards and 3 scores on the board? I don't and that's my problem. When the game is on the line, and we saw it twice today (Coker and Chuba) he couldn't make the pass. That's a basic NFL pass. Daboll didn't respect him enough and punted away with 3 minutes on the clock and had the ball back in under a minute. 

Maybe I'm wrong and BY becomes great and that would be the best thing for the team and I will happily eat crow. The worst thing is he becomes mediocre and we consider that success and stop trying to get better at the position and we live every year somewhere between 6-8 wins. 

A new coach coming in after what I think was one of the biggest clusters of a team last year and giving your first overall QB a chance isn't to crazy.  You really don't know until you get on the field and Canales saw what we all saw.  Bryce Young was not good enough to start. 

But Canales, the staff and numerous other coaches who called about trading for BY thought he might be salvageable.  

I agree with you that I don't think it smart or probable that BW would put up 300 yards and 3td.  That is why Canales isn't asking or expecting him to do that.  Yet.

And even that "Yet" is just a possibility but it's too freaking hard to find a QB in the NFL and there were to many other factors last year to say BW is a total bust and move on.  Especially when moving on right now means a big trade, some QB off a practice squad or running with some UDFA.

The worst thing would be stuck in 6-8 wins a season but that would be a hell of a lot better than the last few year but I get and agree with your point.  My point is simply that the possibility that BW turns it around and becomes a good QB is much more likely than Dalton or any other QB we could get giving us a better chance to win games and improve long term.

The only thing I've continued to preach is he's the best option currently and going forward but that doesn't mean we don't bring in other players to improve and get better.  History has shown that this place is ready to cut bait way to early on players with little regard to the alternative, or other factors that play a role in a players success.

I'd love to enjoy a win without being told repeatedly over and over by the same people why we are still a failure.  The whole yeah we won but...

I'm not arguing and I don't think anyone else actually thinks that your QB throwing for 126 yards is a recipe for winning but I think most people would like to feel good about a win instead of focusing on the host of things we need to continue to improve upon to be a yearly contender.  Trust me, no one is going to forget we still have a long way to go.

3 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Strange hill to die on

How so?  I would think a win is more important than how many yards the QB passed for.

The hill I'm on is Bryce is improving and being an asset at QB and that continuing to do that would be the best possible outcome for the Panthers.

I like that better than the Bryce is the worst QB ever and has no chance or potential to improve and turn into a starting level QB in this league.  It's over.  Stick a fork in us.

If it were up to the huddle, we'd have already cut Brown, Chubba, Horn and just about every player we've had who didn't come out of the gates a finished pro bowler from the first snap.

3 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

126 yards.   

Scoreboard.

4 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

He literally air mailed what could have been a game sealing screen pass. 

what game are you watching 

I mean he's making NFL throws in accordance with the teams gameplan of being run heavy and conservative with passing.  I should have been more specific and said the "types" of throws Canales is asking him to make.

I did not mean he's made "ever single throw".  Nor am I saying he perfect or that his present play is good and we don't have a QB problem anymore or are ready to make a superbowl run.

He also didn't throw any interceptions, made a number of clutch throws, good decisions and was one of the reasons we won.  That throw on the second to last series on 3rd down to XL was clutch and a great throw.

Chubba fumbled.  XL had an easy catch bounce off his chest.  Bryce missed an easy throw to the flat.  A lot of players had chances to seal the win. 

16 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

There comes a point when you have to look at BY game and ask yourself, based on his performance, if he hadnt been the 1st overall pick, would he be starting in this league, or even a backup ? For me, the answer is simple, no. Bryce's game stats are what most QBs accomplish in a half or less on a regular basis. We can win games, but the ultimate goal should always be to make this team a contender. I'm over the feel good wins. At some point you have to accept reality. To compete in a pass friendly league you have to be able to throw the ball with consistency, accuracy, and strength. We're not doing that and we're not getting a winning season, much less into the playoffs, until we do.  

I don't disagree with any of what you said. 

Building the locker room culture, putting in young players in the right position to improve and have success.  I think everything they are currently doing IS to make this team a contender. 

There isn't another QB out there we could get that has more upside then Bryce.  After an awful start to the year and a benching Canales has him playing better and improving.  He current play is an asset. 

Bryce still has a lot of positives that make him worth keeping and starting.

He's young. 
Works hard.
He's improving.
Potential.
Team chemistry.
Elite pedigree.

What other option are you going with right now with a better potential payoff then what Canales is doing right now with the team and with Bryce?

If a better chance comes along to get another QB or any other player that will help us get better as a team and an organization, then what we currently have, I'm all for it.