Loyalty4Life

That was what George called them. That was his descriptor. Drop all those if it makes you feel better The whole convo is highly subjective. We're not exactly following the scientific method here. Serviceable was the low bar he set. He also said star. I think we can both agree that Steve Young was a star. He didn't ask for any parameters. He didn't ask for any context. If he did, I would have answered differently. I don't think anyone would argue all of those players had rocky starts to their career which they overcame.

Man, losing Hurt sucks so bad. I think Cade is serviceable. I am very scared for Zavala. I really pray he's improved. I have a very hard time believing he's better than Brady. I hate, hate, hate the NFL for the 18 game schedule. It would be very difficult to convince me that the added games in a sport already high in injuries does not contribute greatly to the rash of injuries. If ever there was a example of killing the golden goose.

Thank you for literally proving my point in so much detail. Which of those QB's you listed did not go on to be serviceable? Yes, there are a ton of variables that make comparisons less valuable in a lot of way but the whole point is can a pro QB overcome a bad or horrible start. I'm sorry if you think 3 games more in his first year and 3 less in his 2nd somehow makes the Brees comparison not relevant. That is blantently disingenuous and makes having real discussions a pain the butt. We're comparing "similar" bad situations and bad QB play early in a players career. Some of the stats, like games won are lower for Bryce but still comparable. Other stats like interceptions are in Bryce's favor, ie 19 for Bryce over 2 years and 31 for Brees. Maybe we are not answering the same question. George stated "Show me anyone who has been as bad as Bryce through 30 games and turned into a serviceable player much less a star." I could have just said, Maddox and Young and proven his statement wasn't factual. It's the over the top pearl clutching and hyperbolic statements that make my eye twitch.

I'm most surprised with our offensive playcalling. Teams seem to know or have a very good idea where a lot of our run plays are going this year. We don't seem to blend the offense together well this year. It's condensed formations power runs or 5 wide spread. What happened to roll outs, moving the pocket, PA? I know the way the game went handicapped the run game but it's odd. Coaches did not have any kind of blitz protection packages. That's on them. Bryce cannot press and hold on to the ball looking for deeper shots when the check down is right there. On the blitz fumble, he had Chuba in the flat right away and a beat later had Sander on a drag. Last year he was eating that stuff up but this game seemed to revert to bailing out right looking downfield. That is correctable as old habits are easy to fall back on under pressure. I more worried about the ball security. Gotta make it more of a deal breaker. Turnovers ruin everything and two hands on the ball and knowing when a play turns into a low percentage is something Bryce has to get better at. He was very good 2nd half of last year with not turning the ball over. Now, he's loose with the ball and bailing out right from pressure. I will say that the first week of Yosh Nijman being dog walked into Bryce's face repeatedly probably gave him a bad case of deja vu. I'm still on board and still have faith. Keep pounding. As a side note, the dude calling Derrick Brown a JAG is the height of huddle logic. In 2023 he broke the NFL single season record for most tackles by a dlinemen with 103. 21 tackes for loss putting his 3rd all time for the Panthers for interior dlinemen.

Bruh? Is Sam Darnold not serviceable? Did he not have a great year last year with the Vikings? He just went 22-33 for 295 yards with 2 TD and 2 picks in a win over the Steelers. How is this wrong? Combined two-year totals which includes Drew's 8-8 record in his first year: Drew Brees Record: 10-17 Passing: 5,392 yards Touchdowns: 28 Interceptions: 31 Passer Rating: 67.5 Bryce Young Record: 10-17 Passing: 5,280 yards Touchdowns: 26 Interceptions: 19 Passer Rating: 77.95 This even forces me to include Bryce horrible first year and it's still comparable. What am I missing now? Does the climate out west for Drew make a difference when compared to east coast weather in comparison? There is never going to be an exact match. It's why I shared so many. What is so freakin difficult is seeing that some NFL QB's have had similar starts to their career as Bryce, including getting benched or traded but still went on to be serviceable, much less a star? That is literally all I'm saying here which is direct response to George's "Show me anyone who has been as bad as Bryce through 30 games and turned into a serviceable player much less a star." The fact that you can't concede even small points is very telling. What I'm saying here isn't even controversial. I feel like I'm in the football version of Idiocracy.

Way to counter my argument. I concede. Drew Brees' second year (2003): Starts: 11 Record: 2-9 Passing: 2,108 yards Completion %: 57.6% Touchdowns: 11 Interceptions: 15 Passer Rating: ~67.5 Bryce Youngs' second year (2024): Starts: 14 Record: 5-7 Passing: 2,403 yards Completion %: 60.9% Touchdowns: 15 Interceptions: 9 Passer Rating: ~82.2 I am not saying Bryce is going to turn into Brees. But this is a great comparison to prove my point that guys can take time to develop and other QB's have come back from situations comparable to Bryces to not only be serviceable but outright stars.

Sam Darnold and Geno Smith recently. Jake Plummer, Jim Plunkett, Doug Williams, Tommy Maddox, Steve Young, Drew Brees, Rich Gannon, Alex Smith, Vinny Testaverde, Terry Bradshaw.

Great example. What has Sam Darnold done since we got rid of him? I'm not saying we should have kept him but it turns out he has a lot of talent but our coaching staff at the time were morons. Same with Baker. I've got a good friend who is a diehard Browns player and would loooooooovvve to have Baker back. Should have never traded him but that's the Browns. I don't want us to be the Browns. This are all instances of teams/fans that give up on players too soon, don't see how coaching and situations effect a QB's development. If Darnold had gotten drafted by a team with a decent coaching staff he may have figured it out sooner.

It a message board so I can see the difference in what we are talking about. Quote by 45cat: "Yes, but it's only in these circumstances where he thrives, that's the problem He can't be a true franchise QB and wait until the game is out of reach when the defense goes into prevent defense to finally flip on his baller switch." The circumstances where he thrives being only times when the game is out of reach and garbage time. That is the lie. It was 45cat who defined his play in garbage time as "turning on his baller switch". I don't think I've even given the illusion that Bryce "can" be a franchise QB if he only "flips on his baller switch" during garbage time. I don't think anyone has ever said that. The whole point of what he is saying is that you can't give Bryce credit for garbage time. I agree. I just happen to think it's hyperbole to say that is the only time he's played well. There are more than 2 choices of "He sucks, cut him. Worst QB ever" and "Franchise QB". I've consistently said over and over that despite his bad play, he has only shown a ton of improvement overall in the last 10 games from last year. The difference from game 1 last year to game 18 was something very few fans even thought possible. People saying he was too small and would never hold up in the NFL. Dude can take a shot. People saying he doesn't have the ability to throw down the field. That great pass in game 1 from this year that Nola should have caught in the endzone was 43 yards in the air. He can make all the throws. They said he can't throw when pressured. Was one of the top QB's under pressure over the 2nd half of last season. They said he doesn't throw deep. Had one of the highest deep pass attempts in the league over the 2nd half of the season. They said, Oh, well, he can but he's not good at it. Of those deep passes he was one of the most accurate despite a high drop rate by his receivers. People keep saying it's been 3 years. That's enough time to see he sucks. In reality it's been 2 years and 2 games. There is no way I'll ever believe his rookie year didn't set him back. No matter what was said it was a horrible situation on every level. We are trying to come out of and build from that Frank Reich year which I hope was the bottom of the barrel. I've never seen a worse situation for a rookie QB, maybe for any QB. I don't think it's that much of a stretch after how bad that year was for any players development to set it aside and say that year doesn't paint an accurate picture. I'm not even arguing for Bryce in so much as I'm arguing to have more patience and quit with the hyperbole and over the top statement or outright lies. It's only because a handful of the same people have hated Bryce since he was drafted and have rarely given him credit for what he has done and can do. It's the lack of an accurate representation of Bryce and our situation and the development of players. 2021 - It was Derrick Brown's 2nd year, week 11. He was benched. Calls to trade him. He sucks. The Panthers are cursed. Fast forward a few years and he has developed into one of the best players on the team and a Captain. I don't know if Bryce will spiral and completely bust or if it's just a rocky road to stardom like so many players before him. We have very little to lose and everything to gain by staying the course right now.

I've never said "balled out". The statement was that Bryce only plays well when there is no pressure and when the game is out of reach. That is a lie. I named numerous games where he played well. I never said he flipped any kind of switch. Bryce Young has played well in some games in the first half. Bryce Young has played well in some games in the 2nd half. Bryce Young has played well in some games under pressure. Bryce Young has played well in the final drive with the game on the line in multiple games. All of those show he is not just a Jag that shows up in garbage time when the game is out of reach. I named the close games in response to a different question being that we were the opposite of a competitive team over the last 10 games last year. We won 4, got blown out in 3 and were competitive in 7. Two were in OT which is about as competitive as it gets. Seven out of 10 games where we lost or won by less than a TD would be defined as competitive and that would certainly not qualify as "the opposite" of competitive.

Rookie QB, Frank Reich, no offensive line and limited skill positions. No run game, bad defense but let's judge a player potential in that environment. That season was something for Bryce to overcome, not a indication of the kind of QB he can be. It's why I mostly disregard it, especially since we fired the entire coaching staff. So, yes. I'm calling 1 year and 2 games too early to blow it up when the team improved great from the year before. I think I even called 5 wins before the season and was really only looking for progress and a solid plan and foundation with Canales. Check. In this 2nd year I said put the over/under at 8 wins and want to see Young take another jump in his progression. That has not happened for the player or the coaches but we still have 16 more games to grow and produce. If we don't and this is as good as Bryce can get, highs and lows then we'll move on and try something different. If we do make a jump and go on a run and Bryce does make another jump then we are in business. It happened last year despite everything and this is the NFL. Unexpected stuff happens all the time. Bryce becoming a top 15 QB won't even make it in the top 50 crazy and unexpected things that has happened in the NFL. We've had one year and 2 games with Bryce, Canales, Morgan. With the place the team started from and Bryce shitting the bed those first 2 games I was very impressed with how Canales handled Bryce and how Bryce responded.

I never said he had a good game in the Denver game. As you said we had a good first drive ending in Bryce throwing a slant to XL for a TD. It was garbage time but the back shoulder throw to Coker for the late TD was a great throw. Throws like these in bad games are why I say he "can" do it and has the physical tools. The question is can he do it consistently, continue to improve, grow and become our QB of the future. Up to this point that was a hard no but with a new head coach and Bryce in his 2nd year it was 100% the right call to play out the year and see if he got better. He did. Two games into this year is still more of the up and down quality of play and coaching but there is still plenty of potential and we have 16 more games to decide if it's worth it to continue down this path. I don't know what will happen but I know cutting him or benching him now makes zero sense on any level. I said of those last 10 games we were only blown out in 2 of them. I'll concede the Denver game was a blow out. So 3 blowout loses and 7 competitive games, 4 of which we won, all decided by less than a TD. Sounds like a team growing, improving and getting better. All I want to do is see where that leads and if those examples of starting NFL level quarterbacking can continue to improve and become more consistent. Anyone with pride would retire? Laughable. Do all of you quit in your daily lives every time things get tough or don't go your way?

Yes, first drive was a good run, a sack and a 3/13 Bryce threw for 9. Then we punted. 2nd drive - 23 yard deep pass to XL (who caught it) - Great pass by Bryce and good catch by XL 26 yard Chuba run - Great run by Chuba 3 yard Chuba run - moving the sticks 6 yard pass to XL (who caught it again) - moving the stick 26 yard run by Chuba - love a balanced attack!!! great run 1 yard run from Chuba - moving the sticks Incomplete pass by Bryce. 5 yard TD pass from Bryce. - Good job by Bryce in the red zone. This was a very good series early in the game where Bryce, Chuba and the team played very well. No turnovers by Bryce. Chuba had a fumble in the 3rd. Next series: 4 yard run 24 yard pass 15 yard run 8 yard pass 1 yard run 2 yard run 3 yard pass 4 yard run 5 yard penalty Field goal good. Bryce did not have a very good 2nd half but not horrible either. He didn't make any mistakes that cost us the game. He had a 24 yard scramble and a TD pass to Moore called back because because of an illegal formation. That was and is positive progress so soon after he was benched. All around good team win and while Bryce didn't ball out he had a number of good throws and scrambles and didn't turn the ball over.

The team I watched after Bryce came back from his benching was very competitive and improving and trending in a very positive direction. We went 4 and 6 in those 10 games. Got blown out in 2 of them, Dallas and the 2nd TB game. A team that is the opposite of competitive does not lose and win so many games by less than a TD. Den - lose by 14 NO - win by 1 NYG - win by 3 KC - lose by 3 TB - lose by 3 Philly - Lose by 6 Dallas - lose by 16 Cards - won by 6 OT TB - Utter blowout. lost by 34 ATL - won by 6 And this was with possibly one of the worst defenses in NFL history and a 1st year head coach and a lot of young players. That is a team learning and being competitive but can't finish and hasn't learned how to be consistent. Is it good enough? NO. NO. NO and triple dog NOOOO. Not by a long shot but definitely not a stretch that says you fire everybody.

The question was regarding Bryce only play well when the game doesn't matter and us out of reach. Bryce did not have a great 4th quarter but he had a great 1st half. Started the game 4 of 5 for 45 yards and a passing TD. He made a lot of great plays in the drive where we scored our 2nd TD which was a short run by Chuba. He also had a great run to pick up a first when the pocket collapsed around him. Great pocket awareness and plenty fast and athletic enough. The point being he played very well at a time where the game was not out of reach or garbage time. That was my point and those games listed are the evidence that prove that point.

No, it's not acceptable and I've never argued it is. I've only ever argued to let this version of the Panthers room to see if Bryce or Canales or Morgan can build this thing. Last year we overcame a lot in many areas and improved. We have not shown that continued improvement or consistency so far this season in Bryce, Canales and in the defense although stopping the run was a huge step forward. I hope and think that we will.

I agree with most of this outside of Bryce just sucks and that he is not an NFL starter. He proved he can play and we can be very competitive and I still see too much potential to give up. If you'd had your way we would have not seen the huge improvements in his game last year. You were proven wrong then. Jury is still out on this year and his future. In fact if I was given the option to extend him, it not only a no, it's a hell now. Same answer to cutting or trading him. It's not just Bryce. It's the whole team and coaching staff. Keep Pounding.

The fundamental lie that is repeatedly ignored is that have a mathematical chance to make the playoffs is the only pressure an NFL QB feels. NFL is nothing but pressure. Every game. Every snap. You play to win. You play to keep your job. Now, the talking point is moving from he can't play at all to he only plays well when the pressure of the playoffs no longer exists. It's beyond dumb especially for a team that almost no one expects to be a playoff team given we are barely over a year into the Canales, Morgan, Bryce era. In fact, Id say the pressure on losing teams without much recent success and a lot of turnover in players and staff is is very high and gets worse with every loss.

Survey says that is a lie. Last year. Nawlins, Giants, Chiefs, Eagles, Bucks, Cards, Falcons.

You take what the defense gives you. If the D is loading up not to get beat deep you throw underneath and the check downs because everything else is covered. The Prevent defense is named because it prevents deep passes. In this situation, it's what every team would have done.

I don't know what the right protection call is to stop those stunts or even if there is one. Are twists and stunt successful because a protection wasn't called correctly or because the oline and RB did not execute correctly. I know some teams leave those calls to the center. I don't know enough about that aspect of the game to define fault. If that is a problem Bryce has always had dating back to college it would seem an easy fix to take that off his plate.

Bryce has to be better protecting the ball. You have to hug the football like it's your only child when you feel the tackle coming. Defense is always going to pull on your arms our peanut punch the ball. Both hands on the ball. Still needs to speed up that mental clock when the first cycle of reads is not there and scramble half a second earlier. He and the play will be better off. Waiting for long routes or receivers to scramble while in the pocket leads to more problems. It should be read 1,2,3, scramble, run, not 1,2,3,2,1,1,1,sack or pass attempt where his arm gets hit. I don't know what the issue is with protection calls or even if that is an issue but you cannot have 5 rushers and 6 blockers and still have a free Blitzer right up the gut. Bryce, online, coaching? Has to be fixed. I agree, a lot of garbage yards in between the 20s as Cards were up big and played a lot of soft zone because of the remaining time and the score. Saying that, the red zone TDs were impressive and you can't play soft zones with your back against the end zone. Loved the fight and the leadership. Last year Bryce was fantastic under pressure. That was one of the things that helped his turnaround. I've seen it this year, TD pass to Renfrow, but I've also seen regression where he tries to bail out running right. That first sack, even with the free Blitzer he had Sanders on a drag. Last year he hit that. Every play has to have a hot read. These first 2 games are not the same as last years first 2. We will be better but this year a benching is not needed at all. Lastly, this narrative on Bryce can only play well when there is no pressure is crazy. NFL doesn't have that. There's just pressure, more pressure and in the playoffs pressure. He has overcome the pressure of his rookie season which included a poo ton of actual pressure because of a poo line. That kind of pressure ruins a lot of young QBs. He's overcome the pressure of a #1 pick. The pressure of getting benched. He has had five 4th quarter game winning drives. The pressure of becoming an NFL QB and leading an NFL locker room. You expect a lot more team mate backlash but Bryce has received nothing but praise from teammates and coaches. The pressure of a fan base that is sick of losing and can't distinguish reasons from excuses and are calling for him to be cut with every mistake, even the ones he is not responsible for. Dude could be a poster child for overcoming pressure. Long season. Still a lot of football to play and a lot of reasons for optimism. Keep Pounding.

What were Bryces stats last year after his benching for passes over 20 yards (which is what NFL considers deep)? What was the pressure rate on those plays? What was the catchable ball percentage? How often was a good pass dropped? Asking for a friend. XL has a ton to work on but I give WR 3 years because it's a hard transition to to NFL.

Keep pounding.

I literally used your own words and put in a 7th round QB who turned out to be great and a first overall pick who turned out to be a dud. It's to illustration my point that it really doesn't matter where you are drafted. I can lead you to the water but I can't make you drink. By your own logic Purdy should have never seen the field and been cut if draft position really matters as it relates to your play on the field.