tukafan21

Also hard to throw INTs when most of your incompletions end up landing in the dirt before even reaching the WR or DB

And Joe Milton would be an MVP candidate this year, not the Cowboys backup QB. The argument is pretty simple, does Bryce have a strong enough arm to be a successful starting QB in this league. And the answer is even simpler... No. Anything else doesn't matter, he's just flat out proven that he can't make the minimum required throws at a high enough level to be even an average starting QB, let alone anything better than that.

And poo... now that I think about it, you're trying to say he has "average or slightly below average arm strength" but saying that in comparison to the what, 90ish QB's currently on a roster or practice squad right now? So your argument FOR our QB is that he has about the 45-60ish strongest arm in the NFL and you think that's a winning argument in support of Bryce? And actually, you're really comparing him to draft profiles, which by your definition would then also include all the guys who can't make rosters or even practice squads. So really, you're saying because he has an average to below average arm strength of all the players who tried to make it in the NFL in recent memory, he has a strong enough arm to be a successful starting QB in this league. again, I have to say it, JFC

He's 10th in the league in pass attempts. How we're running has absolutely zero bearing on him having the 10th most pass attempts in the league but being literally last in the NFL in passing yards (among QB's who have started all 7 weeks). If this was Delhomme era Panthers, where we were also one of the lowest ranked teams in passes attempted, you'd have a legitimate case there, but that's the furthest thing from the case here.

If there were handfuls of backup QB's who were good enough to be starters in this league, then you'd have an argument on your hands. But when there are current starting QB's who aren't even good enough to actually be starting QB's in this league, you can't then compare a supposed to be franchise QB to those back-ups. QB is the most unique position in all of sports, by a very very wide margin. Trying to compare your starting QB to the backups as a selling point for said starting QB is such a crazy notion that it hurts my brain to think how anyone could honestly think that's the case. It basically would be like comparing a MLB player to the "average professional baseball player" and looking at all minor leaguers in that as well. Saying Bryce has an "average arm" when he's literally likely ranked 32nd out of the 32 starting QB's in arm strength is ceratinly some hill to die on.

And Bryce's 2nd and 3rd best passing yardage marks this year is 199 and 198 yards. Which in itself, is such a sad statistic. Take away his 328 yard game and he's averaging 160 yards per game this season. And for those who hate when you exclude specific games/things from stats, if you remove his high and low mark this season, he's still only averaging 168 yards per game. That's your #1 overall pick in his 3rd season ladies and gentleman. How is there actually people arguing that he can still be a good starting QB in this league, it's freaking nuts.

No, just flat out, no. I’m not even sure that’s accurate for any position in the NFL when you’re grading out 1st round prospects. But even more so when you’re evaluating a QB. If you think any team or evaluator is comparing QB’s you’re drafting to be a starter, to backups and 3rd stringers, then I honestly don’t even know how to respond to that. I’ve heard lots of crazy arguments on message boards, but that would take the cake, by a very wide margin. You’re literally comparing the skill sets of the most important position in all of the sporting world, to guys who can go a decade long career and never throw a meaningful pass in a game.

Of the regular starting QB's since 2000, there might be an argument to be made that Stafford and Rodgers were the two biggest arms in the league during that time. I'm sure there are others that belong in the conversation, and they might not actually be 1-2, but I don't think either would fall out of the Top 5 strongest arms during that time. (admittedly, this is also just a pure gut feel without trying to think back through all the starting QB's during that time frame, but I don't think it's all that off base either)

Even beyond Rodgers and Stafford being HOF level players, the two of them (and Flacco) always ranked near (or at) the top of the list for arm strength throughout their careers, they all had cannons. Dalton didn't have a noodle arm, but he never had an arm like those 3, so even if they've diminished over age, so did Dalton.

Oh, and to add to this... What makes this even crazier is that when you include all those backups, odds are, it still doesn't even give him an "average arm strength" in the NFL. As a lot of NFL backups actually have very strong arms, it's the rest of their game, such as mental side or accuracy, as to why they aren't a starter. It's their strong arm that keeps them on rosters as it makes them good practice squad QB's and then if the starter goes down, at least they have someone who can still sling the rock physically at an NFL level, even if their accuracy and decision making isn't up to par.

So you want to compare Bryce's arm to the backup and 3rd string QB's in the league while using that basis for why he can be a successful starting QB in this league? Do you not realize how crazy that is to say? We're not debating our backup QB's arm strength, we're talking about the starting QB and #1 overall pick. You don't compare that to backups and practice squad 3rd string QB's. Trying to say "average" means including those is quite literally one of the most nonsensical stances I've ever heard when debating an athletes merits. It's like trying to compare a starting NBA SG's 3 point shooting to every player in the league, going to the 15 man deep rosters of guys who bounce around in the G-League, and saying that player is an "average 3 point shooter" for someone who starts and plays 30 minutes a game. Because sure, by definition, that player likely would be an "average 3 point shooter" when you're adding in the skills of backup forwards and the like. But in no world is that same player an actual average 3 point shooter for an NBA starter.

And point being? I've never one time said he was a good QB or would help us win games, in fact, I've quite literally said he costs his teams games. But none of that means anything when I've lobbied for him solely due to his arm strength and his fearlessness in throwing any pass (which is also what makes him a bad actual QB), as those things will 100% help expedite the improvement of all of our pass catchers.

JFC To begin with, how far someone can throw the ball in college doesn’t equate to NFL arm strength. Beyond that, what you are REALLY trying to argue here is that he has an adequate arm strength to get by in the NFL. Which is an entirely different argument than “average arm strength” I still strongly disagree about him having adequate arm strength to succeed, he’s proven he can’t drive the ball anything further than 20 yards (AGAIN… do NOT respond to that by talking about how far he can throw it when perfectly balanced, they are two completely and separate things). The fact remains that you can’t name 10+ current NFL starters that he has a stronger arm than, which is what you’d need to do to say he has an “average or slightly below average arm strength” like you claim. There are a lot of actual debatable things in regards to Bryce, but his pure arm strength and where it ranks to the rest of starting QB’s just flat out isn’t one of them, at all, period.

Do you know what "average" means? It means that among the 32 starting QB's, you're saying he is somewhere around the 16th strongest arm. Do you not realize how bat poo crazy that is? Please, tell me even 5 starting QB's who have a weaker arm than he does? And I'm not talking about having perfect balance and able to perfectly step into a throw where you're chucking it as far downfield as possible. I'm talking about throwing ropes on a line 30 yards downfield. There is no world where he is remotely close to "average" in comparison to the rest of the starting QB's in this league. Just because he was able to throw the ball 60 yards in the air in college, when perfectly balanced, doesn't mean he has an "average NFL arm", that's literal crazy talk. If a non-biased party were to rank the starting QB's solely on arm strength, from 1-32, there is no chance he is anything higher on the list than maybe 27 or 28, and I honestly think he has a better shot at being #32 than even #28, hell, change 28 to 30 and I still think it's an accurate statement.

Canales doesn't have us at 4-3, I sincerely think we're 4-3 in spite of the job Canales has done so far. We're 4-3 because we've played the 2 worst teams in the NFL, the worst defense in the NFL while they were missing their best offensive player, and an epically embarrassing performance by the Falcons. You could make an argument that with better coaching, we should actually be 6-1 right now and I don't think that would be hard to justify.

You're right, his stats somehow are even better than how he actually looks when watching the games, which is remarkable given how poor his stats are. That's the thing, we're 7 games into T-Mac's career and even though people see some things he needs to improve upon, he's had numerous plays already in just 7 games where you can look at him and say, "this kid has star potential" Bryce was the #1 overall pick who 2.5 years into his career, has what, MAYBE 5 plays that make you say "he could be an average to above average QB in this league" Most QB's have that in the first month of their rookie season, he just flat out doesn't pass the ye test even before you dig into his paltry stats. Dart already has more plays in his 3 starts that make you think he has franchise QB potential than Bryce has in his entire career.

Bryce hasn't done a single thing to prove he deserves to have his option picked up. I'd have less of an issue with us declining the option and bringing him back as the starter next year than I would have us picking up that option, as that means he's on our cap books for the next 2 years instead of 1, even if he's cut before year 5. Tua threw for 3,500 yards with a 25-8 TD-INT ratio in just 13 starts the year before they picked up his option, and then threw for over 4,600 yards before they gave him his extension. Kyler threw for 3,722, 3,971, and 3,787 in 16, 16, and 14 games (while rushing for 544, 819, and 423 in those seasons) before they picked up his option and then signed him to an extension before year 4. Jones threw for 3,200 yards with a 3-1 TD-INT ratio with another 700 yards and 7 TDs rushing in year 4 before they signed him to his extension. Bryce has thrown for 2,877 and 2,400 yards in 16 and 12 starts his two seasons, while being on pace for 3,128 yards in a 17 game season so far this year. The closest comparison to any of them was Jones, who while he's turned it around this year, is someone I think everyone can agree was not a player who deserved that extension after that season. If people think those other QB's having their options picked up and/or given extensions were a mistake, in what world can you look at what Bryce has done and make any rational argument for him even being brought back as our starter next year, let alone also picking up his option that would cost us about $27 million fully guaranteed.

Bryce isn't an NFL QB, period. XL, Coker, and Sanders will have gone 2 years without getting NFL level passes thrown their way in games. T-Mac, Horn Jr, and Evans will have gone their rookie seasons without getting NFL level passes. If you don't think that stunts their growth, then I'm not sure what else to say, becuase it just does. They're going full season(s) of their career without the opportunity to catch the type of passes they're going to be expected to catch the rest of their careers when we get a real life NFL QB back there for them. I think there is a real argument to make that as good as Moore has been, he still hasn't reached his potential due to his QB play.

Well first things first, the 5th year option isn't something that "may" get decided this offseason, it WILL get decided this offseason because it has to, this is when they have to pick it up or not. It's how you get into a Daniel Jones situation, where you decline the option, then he stumbles into a decent season so you extend him, just for him to revert back to his old form right away. Bryce getting another year is far less certain than you seem to think, namely because of that 5th year option decision this offseason. We traded the farm for the pick and then took Bryce #1 overall. If you don't pick up the option, it's a hard sell for the players and fan base to bring him back as the starter next year. And because of the trade and taking him #1 overall, it's equally as hard to bring in a true competition for him in camp, because if he loses, you can't keep your #1 overall pick around as a backup. The problem is this injury now gives them the cover to make some dumb decisions

He's a backup because he constantly loses games for his teams with his turnovers. I don't want him for what he can do and a QB, I want him because of what he can do for our WRs and TEs. Bryce started 12 games last year and had 2,400 yards passing with 15 TDs. Jameis started 7 games last year and had 2,120 yards passing with 13 TDs. Bryce has started 7 games this year and has 1,288 yards passing with 11 TDs. If you don't see what Jameis, even with all his faults, can bring to this team because of his very live arm, then you're fooling yourself or just don't want to see it.

Most backup players you didn't draft in the first round and/or are expecting them to be your long term starters. You need in game reps to grow your game and these guys aren't getting NFL level in game reps with Bryce at QB, I don't know how anyone can honestly think we aren't stunting their growth so far. And yes, I agree some of XL's issues are things he needs to work out on his own to improve his catching and mental side of the game, but he still needs a real life NFL QB throwing him the ball or he'll never improve, no matter what he does on his own.

I agree with this and said as much in the "QB trade" thread last night. However, I think Jameis is the one exception to this rule, especially if we can get him for a 5th or later pick TWO drafts from now. To me, that cost is MORE than worth the return we'll get in the form of expediting the growth of our pass catchers. But literally any other available backup QB in the league and anything other than a pick TWO drafts from now, and I probably then balk at a trade like that.

These guys aren't getting passes beyond 15 yards that are at a true NFL level quality of a throw, that's really not even debatable, it's just a fact with what Bryce is able (or not able) to do. If you don't think that is stunting their growth, then I don't know what else to say, because it 100% is. Even more so with someone like XL since he was so raw when we got him anyways. Wasting 2 years of his development getting thrown balls that don't cut it at this level is without question stunting his growth. You also forget that WRs tend to be the type that get happier when they're getting thrown the ball more, especially downfield. So yes, while they might get frustrated by Jameis' turnovers, the increase in downfield passing will more than offset that to keep them happy.

Yep, exact same thing as last year, fans and the team will see the Wins, remember he "lead game winning drives" (despite him not even throwing a pass on some of those drives), and forget how he actually looked in those games and the paltry passing numbers he put up in them. Then they'll say "well we had a winning record before he got hurt and then the high ankle sprain affected his play the rest of the season and was the reason he struggled, so when he's healthy next year, he'll be great again" This has disaster written all over it

A QB throwing INT's has no bearing on the growth of his pass catchers, it just kills a team's chances of winning games. For all his problems as a QB, Jameis still has one of the strongest arms in the league and is also one of the most fearless throwers of the ball as well (which is part of his problem). Our WRs and TEs would get peppered with targets at all levels, something Bryce isn't able to do and I don't think Dalton necessarily has it left in him anymore either. THAT would 100% expedite their growth, there's no question about it.