tukafan21

You won't believe this, but neither with the information at hand Nobody wants to believe me, but this thread and my issues with the team have absolutely nothing to do with T-Mac. Do I wish he had more targets or some TD's already? Of course, but he's 15th in the league in yards and on pace for 1,200 as a rookie, 2nd in the league in 20+ yard catches, 5th in the league in 1st down catches. He's on pace to shatter Panthers rookie records and could potentially end up in contention for a Pro Bowl slot depending how the season shakes out. This thread was about our piss poor offensive play calling, as we're never going to be able to properly develop any of our young offensive weapons this year with how that's been going. If we're having the same issues as always, then yea, I'm puling for option 1 for my guy, because what really matters isn't changing. But if you tell me we had a great pass/run mix, keeping the defense off balance, getting chunk yards on a consistent basis, XL, Horn, Coker, Sanders, Evans, etc, make plays that show they're improving. Then yes, I'll take option B with T-Mac taking a backseat when that other stuff happens, because it's what is best for the future of this franchise. This season isn't just about T-Mac, it's about improving ALL of our young weapons, but that won't happen with the way Canales has been calling games (and with how Bryce has played). And again, I'm not going to try and dig out months old posts, but I said this all offseason. That actual standings wins and loses don't matter to me this year because I never believed we could be contenders. Showing growth and improvement from the front office, to the coaches, to the players, was most important.

There is no easy way to "measure" it like you ask, it's not scientific of course, but it's almost easiest to judge it by your frustration levels throughout the game at what is going on. In terms of player performance, it's things like how often you see Bryce throwing uncatchable passes, whether sailing them or because they are thrown into the ground. For WRs, it's are they making catches, are they dropping it, just how they look out there, etc. But for me, the big thing this thread was about, was specifically play calling and not to think we had a great called game just because we won and Rico had 200+ yards. How many times did we line up on 1st and 10 and say to yourself, "welp, here comes another run for 2 yards" and then that's exactly what happened? Or say a 3rd and 8 on our own 30 and you say, "here comes a screen pass that will only get 5 yards" and then that's exactly what happens? Canales' play calling seems very predictable, stale, and with little imagination in play design (and many others have felt this same way since last year too). To me, that is the big reason this game was a "bad win" because it's not like we did anything differently that made us appear to be a better team. It's why I say the 200+ yard game is because Rico made great plays, not because Canales called a great game that kept the defense on their heels and it allowed consistent 5-8 yard chunk runs throughout the game. To that last point, I just saw that of his 206 yards, 169 of them were after contact. Yet again, more proof that he didn't get his 200 yards because of a well called game by Canales, but by great individual efforts by him (it also pokes the hole in the argument someone made yesterday that said our OL was dominating theirs, as clearly it wasn't based on that stat). If we come out this week and have unexpected play calling that keeps getting us chunk yards because the Cowboys don't know what is coming next, I'll be the first to congratulate Canales on a well planned and called game that showed marked improvement, regardless of whether or not we won or lost the game.

Figured given my other thread, it would just be funny if I started this one. But Rico was just given this week's Angry Runs on GMFB

What?!?!?! Yes it absolutely is, you're never going to get to contention if you never improve. Winning 5-6 games a year because the other team was worse (not because you were better) does you no good in becoming a contending team, but improving as a coaching staff and as players 100% helps move the needle towards reaching a contending status. I used this example all offseason, but just look back at the Lions like 5 years ago. They kept losing, but were showing improvement in doing so, they went from I think (not looking it up) a 3 win team, to a 6 or 7 win team, to playing in the NFC Championship game in a span of 3 years. They did it because in those 3 and 6/7 win seasons, they were showing improvement even in their losses, they weren't squeaking by in their wins while still looking terrible in key areas of the game. THAT is what I'm asking for and why I'd rather see improvement over ugly wins, they are the literal example of what I'm looking for and now they're a true SB contender after picking 2nd in the 2022 draft. And beyond all of that, your example of "we'd have won the SB right now" is also just nonsense that proves my point. Because we haven't improved for years despite winning a handful of games each year because the other team was worse than we were. So why haven't we actually gotten better in all that time yet when we've been winning games ugly instead of losing games while showing improvement? You're literally proving yourself wrong with this post.

That's fair, but I've also never said you can't enjoy a win, there is a big difference between enjoying a win and sticking your head in the sand about our issues, which is what so many who are "just enjoying the win because of how bad we've been lately" are doing. You can enjoy a win while also seeing the realities, and if you're a fan who can just enjoy those wins, more power to you. But I'd prefer to see improvement over bad wins, and sure, I'd rather see wins and improvement in the same game, but if that's not an option, give me improvement in a loss over frustration in a win. I genuinely don't understand why that's a controversial take, as I'm literally rooting for the thing that will help us contend faster, even if that won't be very fast.

The irony here is interesting You say the change won't happen overnight, so you're good with enjoying the wins despite not showing actual improvement. You're right, it's not going to change overnight, which is why so many of us are rooting for seeing improvement right now over bad wins right now, because you have to start somewhere if you ever hope to improve. Winning ugly doesn't help us in the future, but showing improvement would

Being happy about a win isn't giving up on them, but when people say things like, "we should just be happy after a win given how bad we've been the last 10 years", that's being happy regardless of how we looked because we don't get a lot of wins, which is straight up loser mentality. And that's my point, 95% of the people happy about this win are also saying those kind of things. I'm not upset that we won, I'm upset that we still didn't look good in key areas, namely play calling, if you can't see the difference between those things, then that's a you problem, not a me problem. This win does NOTHING for us into the future, which is why it's hard for me to get exited over a win against another horrible team where we still didn't look good outside of a few big runs by Rico. Trust me, if we turned some corner and looked great with Canales calling a great game to keep the Dolphins guessing wrong all day, then yea, I'd be on here celebrating it up, but that's not close to what happened.

But this is my exact point, aren't you sick of just being happy over a win because we get them so infrequently? Don't you want to finally start to be competitive every week and be in the playoff hunt again? If just getting a win makes you happy, then I feel bad for you, because it means you've completely given up on the franchise ever being decent again and you're good with a handful of wins each year. When the season is over and we go 6-11 again, do you really still feel all good and fuzzy inside because of those few wins we got because the other team poo the bed worse than we did that week? Do those bad wins really then help you get excited for the next season? I said this exact same stuff before the season even stared, that I didn't care if we won or lost games this year as long as we showed marked improvement in a variety of areas. Because doing THAT would be what helps move us towards being a competitive franchise again, not seeking out wins while we still show the same problems that have plagued us for years, such as poor play calling. And that's VERY different than what you said in that first post, about "preferring to lose", as of course I'd rather also win those games as that shows even more improvement. But if you're going to put two options in front of me, win a game we show the same problems or lose a game where we show marked improvement, I'm taking the loss there every time because the improvement is a better sign for the long term outlook for the franchise that showing the same problems yet again.

They're pretty far off, double T-Mac's stats to get to the same targets as XL and it would be 4 drops to 7. A 3 drop difference might not sound like a lot, but it's still almost twice as many drops on the same number of targets. Not to mention, if I remember correctly, XL's drop problems last year seemed more down field, where he was dropping passes he should be making and it was clear his poor hands were there reason he dropped them. And weren't both of T-Mac's drops this year on quick hitters with blockers out in front of him? I know at least the second one was as he was going to go for a huge play and maybe a TD on it. To me, and yes, I'd say this about any other player, those are drops because a rookie was trying to do too much in making a play before securing the catch. Much easier to improve upon a lapse in concentration than dropping passes because you have bricks for hands and body catch more often than hands catch, like with XL. And yes, 100%, which is why I wasn't one of those people you were referring to with talking about him that way last year. Yes, I said he had drop problems., because he did, but I didn't think they were unsolvable and expected to see great improvement this year after an offseason of hitting the juggs machine (unfortunately not sure that happened though).

I mean, he was tied for 13th in the league in drops with 7 despite only having only 84 targets while having 49 rec for 497 yards, with 7 catches of 20+ yards and 27 1st Downs in 16 games. T-Mac has 2 drops this year on 43 targets while having 24 rec for 351 yards, 9 catches of 20+ yards and 19 1st Downs in only 5 games. So in only 1 target more than half the targets, he has less than 1/3rd of the drops, while being half a catch shy of half his catches, already 70% of the yards, 2 more catches of 20+ yards, and 70% of the 1st Downs in 11 less games. Again, trying to compare T-Mac's hands or any WR ability other than speed to XL is just completely insane.

Has a single pass to T-Mac resulted in a fumble or INT? I don't think so. And yes, he has a couple drops, but that's it, it's only 2 actual drops so far. Too many idiot fans chalking up non catches to drops, just because they know how absurd of catches he is capable of making already. Be frustrated he couldn't make a difficult catch, that's fair, but stop calling them drops or like the above post, trying to insinuate his hands are remotely in the same realm as XL, just lunacy. And no, I'll never say we're improving based solely on T-Mac's stats over a game or full season. I can objectively see and say if I see improvement on the team as a whole, something I'm not at all seeing right now.

Just a ridiculously absurd statement

We're not a downfield passing offense because Bryce can't make those throws consistently. But I see no reason we can't be a solid possession passing game with consistent 10-15 yard passes, as we very well do have the WRs to do that between T-Mac, Renfrow, and now hopefully Coker coming back. Unfortunately that's not XL's specialty as you need good hands for those usually, he's more of the deep shot for his speed or short passes to let him run with it. That stat when throwing downfield is kinda crazy when you combine it with T-Mac being tied for 2nd in the league with 9 catches of 20 yards or more.

I've literally never one time said having a 200 yard rusher wasn't good. There is a monumental difference between saying that and saying "don't excuse Canales' continued poor play calling because our RB did something special" Having a 200 yard game because you had 160 yards on 6 of your carries is because of the RB, not the play calling. Again, look at the literal title of this thread, it's about the play calling problems, not anything else. This is basically the same thing as everyone going all googoo gaga over Bryce's last few games last year and thinking he turned some corner. No, he didn't, he had a handful of good to great plays but on the whole still wasn't very good, and people fell for that Mirage. Same thing, just about something else this time instead of Bryce.

And THIS, this right here is what I can't stand about this fan base. Stop being happy at things that good franchises don't get happy about, just because of how bad we have been the last decade, it's loser mentality to be happy for those reasons. Be happy when we actually show improvement and win games because we played a good game, not because we won a game because the other team was shittier than we were. I'll never apologize for wanting to see actual improvement, not going nuts over a handful of good plays in a game where we barely squeaked by one of the worst teams in the league.

Oof this list is tough to look at lol 2 QB's who used to be on our team and a 3rd we could/should have drafted, then a 1st round rookie WR who is putting up bonkers numbers because he's getting to play with one of said former Panthers QB's, while our 1st round stud is stuck with mini Bryce throwing to him.

We only had 9 carries that went for over 5 yards on the day, I'm not really sure you can then say our OL manhandled their line. If you OL manhandled the opposing DL, you should have more than 9 carries that went for over 5 yards (and no, I'm not saying we should then have had a dozen 15 yard carries, but there should have been more of those 6-10 yard chunk plays than we got). Which again, is the root of my problems with this game, because I agree with you, Etienne looked solid, combined with Rico having the game of his life. Better play calling and being less predictable, in an advantageous matchup, 100% should have lead to more carries of over 5 yards than we had, which in turn should have then opened up the passing game more, none of which happened. Hence my point of the thread, not to let Rico's 200 yard game make you gloss over the fact that Canales still called an awful game. This thread was never meant to be an attack on Rico or a desire to see more T-Mac targets, it was a statement about Canales still being a terrible play caller.

I think that's part of the problem, he's spreading the ball around too much, many of them are the first read play calls, and on top of that, a large portion of them are purposefully called screens or other short passes. I just looked, the Cardinals are the only other team in the league right now without at least 3 players with 100+ yards receiving so far this year, with the majority of teams having 4 or more. And even then, their #2 right now is McBride with over 200 yards. Our 2nd leading receiver this year has 108 yards (albeit with 4 more players with 82 or more). On the surface, that might not be as alarming as you might think, but when you add into it that Bryce is currently 6th in the league in pass attempts, and it's even more alarming that he hasn't gotten a 3rd player to 100 yards so far and his second highest is only 108. XL has 39 yards on 18 targets. Renfrow has 82 yards on 24 targets. Tremble has 87 on 16 targets. Sanders has 92 on 14 targets. None of those are good enough, so why aren't we calling more plays with T-Mac as the first read and forcing the ball to him (and again, that's not me wanting my guy to get more targets, that's me wanting more targets for the only productive pass catcher so far this year, I'd feel the same no matter what that player's name was). All of this is why I have issues with Canales' play calling. How do you have a player who had 73 yards in the first half and then you only give him 1 target in the 2nd half despite playing from behind the majority of that time? You can be happy about the win, happy about Dowdle getting 200 yards, but in a game where your QB threw it 30 times, I can't accept the above sentence in the same breath, that's just terrible play calling, which is on top of the already predictable play calling in general, which is also on top of boring play designs as well. Add it all up, and THAT is why I'm unhappy even after a win, not because "my guy" didn't have a bigger game.

Again, maybe it's my frustration with him on the whole that I just don't see it as much, but I don't see him going through his progressions from the pocket that much, only when he's forced to scramble. Just seems like he's very often throwing to his first read from the pocket, which would then be on Canales for spreading it around, not because he worked through to find the open man. Also, part of it is that we're constantly seeing open guys that he's not throwing to, so if he's going through his progressions, then he's just flat out making the wrong decisions.

I'll be honest, this one is more of just a gut feeling based on watching Bryce all this time, not something I've actively tracked.... But I don't think it's Bryce, I think it's Canales. Bryce doesn't move through his progressions well (or at all) unless he's scrambling around and thus is forced to. He very often seems to be throwing to his first read or what the play was called for. If Bryce was a QB who stands confidently in the pocket, working his way through his progressions and hitting the open man, I'd get it and agree with you, but that's just not what I've seen from my recollection, again, not like I've taken notes of that on all his passing snaps, so maybe I'm wrong on that one. And sure, it could be Bryce making that decision at the line based on what he's seeing pre-snap, but if that's the case, it's almost more alarming than the opposite, because it's not like he's tearing it up, so it means he's making pre-snap decisions of where to go with the ball, going that way, and still sucking, along with Canales then not being like "WTF are you doing out there?!?!" and making him stop doing that.

Yea, I've never had high expectations since we drafted Bryce, so it's not like I'm just upset about not meeting them. I went into the season wanting to see player improvement and Canales' play design/calling improvement. I'm now to the point where I 99% only care about seeing individual player improvement. The 1% is that I unfortunately have to still hope to see Canales play calling improvement, because that is kinda critical for the improvement of all our young offensive players. Offense is different from defense, you need good play designs and calls to show out. On defense, everything can be a mess, but a great young player can still stand out and look great. Our defense can be a mess but still have Horn locking down his guys on the outside, Scourton or Princely winning their pass rushing and pressuring the QB, DB swallowing up multiple blockers. But it's very hard for any QB, RB, WR, or TE to individually shine when the play design and calling is poo.

I agree about Evero deserving credit, but that's also unfortunately where I have to say something that I'm sure won't go over well either. As that's great and all, but honestly, at this point, do we REALLY care about Evero showing improvement in his schemes as a coach other than making our players better individually? If you're in the same boat as me, and 100% expecting a new HC next year, what our DC does this year with in game improvements is nice in the moment, but pointless in the long term since he'll then also be gone next year, no way a DC gets kept around for 3 HC's no matter what he did that previous year. So yes, I give him credit and want us to show improvement there, but it's just unfortunately not something I'm going to get excited about either when looking forward into 2026 and beyond, which as I've clearly said, is really all I'm looking at this year, how it sets up our future as a franchise. Now I'll also be fair there and say if you think Canales and co. will be back next year, then sure, it's something to get excited about, but I just can't see any way Tepper brings him back again.

Also, this post is EXACTLY what I wanted to move on from Bryce this offseason and sign Jameis. Because he'd be slinging the ball all over the field and it would expedite the growth of all our young pass catchers, which to me, regardless of our record, would have made for a "winning" season. We all want our long term franchise QB, but if you can't get that, expediting the improvement of the rest of your roster is a solid consolation prize given the state of our franchise.

Very fair, but also something I have a "I don't give a poo" attitude about, because I'm so over Bryce and as I've said, this year for me isn't about wins and losses, but improving as a team, which includes individual players getting better. T-Mac, XL, Coker, Horn Jr, Sanders, and Evans aren't going to get better as pass catchers if they're just out there blocking all the time because we're too afraid of Bryce sucking and costing us games. If we lose games because Bryce sucks and throws INT's (or fumbles without being touched lol), but all of our pass catching options got a couple extra targets to help expedite their improvement, it's a trade off I'd take 100 times out of 100. As THAT would then help our future as a franchise, as when we get a real life NFL level QB in here next year, he's getting to throw to players who spent this year growing as players, not having wasted a year of improvement because we're too afraid to let the noodle arm throw the ball.

And if that's the case, then you shouldn't be throwing it 30 times. But if you do, give your only legitimate WR threat more than 8 of those targets. Because again, this isn't about T-Mac, it's about the overall play calling. If we came out and just went very run heavy, with the play design and calling keeping the defense on their heels so we're constantly ripping of 5+ yard carries and sustaining long drives, then I'd be 100% okay with it and not upset with "my guy" not having a big game. But we didn't do that, we kept running rather predictable plays, with bland play design that wasn't scheming players open or creating open running lanes to constantly get chunk yards in the run game. It was Rico breaking off a few big plays, partially due to his breaking of tackles, that got him the 200+ yards, NOT Canales' play design and play calling. Do you see the differentiation I'm talking about there?