tukafan21

I just thought of an interesting comparison for what I'm arguing with taking T-Mac and how to build up to hopefully being a contender. The mid 2000's Arizona Cardinals In 2003 they took Anquan Boldin early in the 2nd, kinda a decent comp for Legette with style of play and being more of an elite #2 than a true outside #1 (they also took a WR in the 1st too who didn't pan out). In 2004 they took Larry Fitzgerald #3 overall, the true outside #1. Their QB's at the time, Jeff Blake and Josh McCown The QB they passed on to take Fizgerald, Philip Rivers. They were in the Super Bowl a few years later after they found their QB in Warner to slot into an already built out roster of elite weapons. Cam, you asked how it would look if we passed on a QB who pans out for a WR, well, do you think the Cardinals regret taking Fitz over Rivers? I highly doubt it. Our roster is more than one offseason away from contending. I'm not looking for the quick fix because there isn't one with the state of this franchise at the moment, I'm looking to contend for a decade. I don't think a QB in this draft class is good enough to take 1st overall with everything else we still need. My next preference would be an elite pass rusher, but again, I don't see one of them in this draft either. My personal bias aside, I very honestly think T-Mac is the most can't miss offensive prospect in this draft (Hunter would be that on defense). He is the WR we've been trying to get since we lost Smitty. Brooks, T-Mac, Legette, Coker/FA, Sanders would have the potential to be one of the best offensive weapon sets in the NFL. Sure, hopefully we could hit on a superstar QB in the next draft, but even if not, if those guys pan out, with them all are in their prime together, we wouldn't need a Mahomes or Allen to contend, we'd only need to find our Jared Goff. and spend all our FA money the next couple offseason on Defense.

My dude, why do you keep doing things like this? I don't take joy in questioning anyone else's intelligence or reading comprehension skills, but you keep doing things like things, and I can't let such asinine responses go without calling them out, it's just not in me to do that. LITERALLY in the very first sentence of the post you quoted, I straight up acknowledge and accept that you would take the QB there if you can't trade down, which in turn, is an acknowledgement of how you view them as an elite prospect. Period. There is no debating that, I literally right there in the first sentence did EXACTLY what you are claiming here that I can't do. BEYOND any of that, you're still completely ignoring my question to you, which is a completely valid question in a discussion such as this right now, let's recap shall we........ The generic question is what to do with the #1 pick. It's near unanimous that we use it to trade down, great, since we all agree, we can move past it in regards to the current discussion, as it's a hypothetical that requires another team's help to happen. So we move onto the question of what we would do with the #1 pick if we have to make the selection there, great, simple, easy peasy, on the same page still. You have said you'd take a QB, I disagree, but numerous times have acknowledge you and some others feel that way (even though you bafflingly thing I haven't, disagreeing with someone isn't refusing to acknowledge their view). In the last 28 years the only positions to go #1 overall have been QB, DE, and OT. I've clearly explained why I don't see any of those positions making sense for the Panthers, in our current state, to take in this draft, with this draft class. Because of that, you still have to make a selection, you don't get to pass on making a pick. So I said I would take T-Mac with a full explanation (numerous times) as to why I view him as the prospect to take compared to the other options. To which you deride and question my football intelligence solely for saying I'd take a WR #1 overall when you don't have a QB. I then ask you a simple question, which you refuse to answer solely on the basis of you saying you'd go with the QB. You can't attack someone for saying they'd take a WR there and then refuse to answer the question of who you would take instead if you couldn't take a QB. Because there is a very real possibility that the Panthers will look at the QB's and agree with me (and many others) that there isn't a QB that is worth the risk taking at #1 overall and they end up unable to trade back and have to make a pick there and won't go with a QB because of their grades on this class. Which again, is my question to you, in THAT scenario, who are you drafting 1st overall if it's not a QB? It's a simple question, and answering it doesn't mean you don't believe in the QB's at that spot in the slightest, or even that I'm not accepting of your views on the QB's in this class.

My point was less about what you'd do if you have to pick #1 and can't trade back, because you've made your point, you'd take the QB. The point was if you also didn't believe a QB was worth it there, who would you then take? Because you keep bashing me for saying I'd take a WR #1, but if a QB or trade back isn't an option, you still have to make the draft pick, that's why i was asking who you'd take in that situation. You can't bash me for taking a WR there if you refuse to say who you'd then take instead, whether it be Hunter, one of the DL, or something else. And it wouldn't matter of they had a successful rookie season, the same way people disregard what Stroud did last year, because they say (and rightfully so) that if you drop Stroud on the Panthers last year, he likely severely struggles given the team that was around him. It's just more proof that you can't view things outside a vacuum, one player succeeding somewhere else doesn't mean you made the wrong pick yourself. You keep arguing for a QB by saying that you're taking them because of the position, NOT the player. It's just beyond comical at this point that you can't see that. If the team doesn't think Sanders, Ward, or some other QB grades out to be worth the risk at #1, then it doesn't matter how they end up doing with someone else. Because us taking them at #1 if we didn't think they were worth it, would be a completely moronic situation, it's taking a player because of their position, not their abilities. This franchise isn't a QB away from contending. People want to solve all of our problems with a QB pick and think it's going to turn us into contenders in Year 1. We're in a multi year re-build that hasn't even fully kicked off yet, forcing a pick because of their position is how you compound your issues and tank that player's chances for success from the start. Until people realize and accept that, they're going to want to keep making picks based on need, not based on the players available. You don't build a contending team by taking risks at the top of the draft every year because of your needs with no regards to the player's NFL projections. 3 QB's went in 2023 because of their position and team need, with disregard to their draft grades. 2 of them have already been benched in Year 2 and the 3rd is having a down year themselves. How you can't see that there is a distinct chance that is repeating itself with this draft, when we're one of those teams who is in that situation, is utterly beyond me. Just because you need a QB and they historically get taken in the Top 5 every year, doesn't mean you need to do that in a year you don't believe there is a QB worthy of the pick. I'm VERY down on this year's QB class as Top 5 type of picks. If we were at say 12, with a better roster, then yea, I'd be much more on board with taking that risk. But we can't take a huge risk on these QB's when we have as many holes as we do, with no 2nd round pick. If we did that and we miss, this franchise will be in such despair in a year or two that it would be unimaginably worse than it is right now. But again, that's what I keep telling you, you only view things in a vacuum, not taking all realities into consideration.

Yes we should have the talent to prevent that, the problem is we don't. The new coaching staff did not do a good job at replacing the offensive players we lost from last year. I can't stress enough how bad the rest of our offensive players are. And the problem isn't as much the other weapons anyways as much as the offensive line. We basically have the college equivalent of the Panthers line last year, our QB is running for his life almost immediately after the snap, when you combine that with double and triple coverage (plus the QB just playing awful on top of it), no matter how good the WR is, he's not going to be able to get open that quickly to get him the ball. And if any team is planning on drafting Hunter in the Top 5 as a WR who only gets used periodically on defense, they're going to severely regret it in a few years, it needs to be the other way around. He's rail thin and already keeps getting hurt in college, he's not going to last as a WR at the next level. I can't knock anyone saying to take Hunter as CB over T-Mac, but if anyone is taking him as a WR over either T-Mac or Burden, I think they're making a big mistake.

Okay, I'm back at my computer so easier to respond to your nonsense now......... You attack my football intelligence, but you are completely unable to look at anything in reality, you live in this vacuum where you only see letters and numbers on a sheet of paper and think you can do anything you want to do with no regards to what other teams would want to do. You say taking a WR with the #1 pick is dumb unless you have a QB in place. My response to that is you don't take a QB #1 overall when they aren't a good enough prospect to justify taking them there. One is judging the player by who you think they will be at the NFL level, one is judging them by the position they play and nothing else. People can disagree with someone's evaluation of a player, but you don't, you just look at their positions and stats in a vacuum. You say that you control the draft if you have the #1 pick, but you don't. You can want to make a trade all you want, but if another team doesn't want to make a trade with you, then you don't control the draft, all you control is who you can take with said #1 pick. The 2023 draft is a PERFECT example of this The Bears tried to trade with the Colts and Texans before us, but neither felt it was worth giving up additional assets in a down QB draft, when they knew a QB they would be wiling to draft would fall to where they were at. If we weren't absurdly stupid to make that trade, the odds are the Bears wouldn't have been able to make one and would have ended up taking a non QB there themselves. We're in the same situation. Once we signal that we want to trade the pick, it tells the world that we don't think any of the QB's are worth that pick for us, because if we did, obviously we'd draft them. If teams KNOW we're not taking a QB, they have zero motivation to trade with us to take the QB they want, they would just target the #2 pick, knowing the QB they want would still be there. Sure we may make a trade in the end, but since the discussion is who you would take at #1 if we have to, there's literally no point in talking about trades here, even if that's everyone preference. You can disagree with me on my view that none of these QB's are worth taking #1, that's totally fair. But to attack me for saying I'd take T-Mac instead is just nonsense given my view on this year's QB class. If I told you right now that you can't choose a QB (as again, that's my viewpoint, that none are worth it in this class there) and you can't trade back and had to take someone 1st overall... who are you taking? Say you'd take a QB, that's fair, but attacking me for "wanting to draft a WR #1" when I've clearly stated I don't view any of the QB's as being worth taken there, is just nonsense as you can't just pass on a draft pick, you still have to take someone. So again, I'll end it asking you the same question... Put yourself in my shoes for a second and just pretend that you agree that none of the QB's are worth the #1 pick for us. Besides saying you'd then make a trade, as it takes two to tango, if you HAD to select someone at #1 and you were in my shoes and agree no QB is worth it, who would you take? To me, once you remove QB from the equation, and since I don't see an elite pass rusher in this class either, it comes down to two players, T-Mac and Hunter. So it's not about me wanting to "draft a WR #1", it's about me looking at the players I think make sense at drafting in the Top 5 in general, looking at our roster, and taking the player I think makes the most sense. And at that point, for me, it just happened to be a WR. It's called evaluating a situation by looking at everything involved, not just their position or stats, which is what you do.

Really? Back to this again? How many times have I said that I’d prefer to trade back from #1? Too many to count, but as I’ve pointed out, that’s going to be much easier said than done, as once we signal we want to trade back, teams will know we don’t want any of the QBs and they’d target the 2nd pick in a trade instead. All of my “T-Mac at #1” talk has been discussed under two circumstances… the first being that no QB or DE pop before the draft, and that we can’t trade back. But again, I know you don’t like to actually read that stuff when I say it, as I’ve said it numerous times.

Oh, and yes, I’d take a WR first in this upcoming draft, but again, that’s not in a vacuum I wouldn’t have taken him over the QBs this past year or likely the ones next year either. It’s all relative to who is available in a specific draft, and I don’t think any of the QB’s are worth the risk at #1 this year. Also the fact that you’ve said you would take T-Mac #2 but scoff at him going #1 is just in itself, super weird. How you can justify a player at #2 but not #1 solely because of their position and with complete disregard to the other players available, is absolutely crazy town talk

lol, this is rich coming from the guy who screamed all last offseason that Bryce was going to be an Elite QB in the NFL and that we’d be SB contenders last year. Yep, let’s listen to your analysis of draft prospects, that makes total sense

In fact, how is this for a Panthers related example………. DJ Moore put up his best statistical season last year with the Bears and Fields as his QB. Did that mean Fields was an elite player or does it just mean DJ had a better QB and coaching staff than he previously had with the Panthers? Well seeing as they then traded Fields who then got benched for Wilson despite having the Steelers win games with Fields starting….. I’m going to say it was the better QB/staff than what he previously had, not that it means the QB is amazing at the NFL level.

By literally what you said in this exact post, by their tape, not their stats. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills talking to you when you say things like this. saying someone would put up monster stats on another team doesn’t mean that makes players on said team better (or worse) NFL prospects. There is literally ZERO correlation between the two because the college game is so different and statistically offensively biased to begin with It really is not a hard concept to grasp. But I say he’d put up bigger stats on a better team, with a better QB, and coaching staff and your reaction is…. But how can you then say it’s a down QB class

The more I think about this one the crazier it gets Basically what you’re saying is that because I think Sanders and Colorado’s staff is better than Fifita (Arizona’s QB) and our staff, and thus T-Mac would put up huge numbers there……… That means I shouldn’t think it’s a down year for QB’s in this class!!?!?! Do you even hear yourself and how crazy that sounds with takes like that? I’d bet there are a good 25 teams I could say he’d put up bigger stats with this year than with us, does that mean I should then think this should be the greatest QB class of all time?

Seriously, this is the exact post that makes me lose my damn mind, because you can't separate Collegiate game from the NFL. You think college stats = NFL projections/ability The college game is littered with MONSTER stats from QB's who never make it past NFL training camps onto a roster. I'm not saying Sanders is like that of course, but just because him and the offense put up huge numbers, doesn't mean he's a surefire elite NFL prospect. The fact that you can't or refuse to understand that, is why anything you say is severely flawed. Bash me for my love of T-Mac, but you just can't separate college box score stats from NFL projections, which is just asinine.

Yes, NAU "shut him down" by literally triple teaming him on almost every snap, I don't care how good you are, when you're triple teamed and your QB is playing poorly and behind an OL that gives you all of 2 seconds to make a play, that WR isn't going to do anything that game unless your coaching staff schemes him up to get quick passes, which they didn't. Our Arizona boards have been losing their poo all season over how bad the staff is using him and their play designs/calls. And as I've said numerous times, QB's don't get mocked by draft grades, those same experts that had Young and Stroud at the top of those mock drafts also openly admitted they didn't have them graded that high, same as this year's class. Also as I've said numerous times, look at the position label or what they say about Hunter in those mock drafts, they almost all have him listed as CB and/or discuss him as a CB in their breakdown of him, because it's his better side of the ball and where he's more likely to play.

You do realize that the college game is entirely different than the NFL, right? There are ELITE college QBs that aren't even good NFL QB's, cough cough BRYCE YOUNG cough cough. Colorado's entire offensive system is built around putting up big stats and outside of Hunter/T-Mac they have far more weapons at their disposal than Arizona has to take up attention from the defense. I've also never said Sanders is going to be a garbage player, I don't think he'll be an Elite Top 10 NFL QB type of guy either, but he's still significantly better than Arizona's QB, so yes, he'd make T-Mac even better than Arizona's QB, even if I don't think he should be the #1 pick in the draft, that's not a hard concept to grasp.

Just because a QB has more of an impact and is valued more, doesn't mean you reach for one in a down QB year, that's LITERALLY why we are in this position right now, because it's what we just did with Bryce. There are far too many question marks with this year's QB class (right now) for me to be okay with taking any of them at the top of the draft. Taking a QB just because they're more impactful, when one shouldn't be taken there, is how you kill franchises. And saying I like Hunter in general is completely disregarding the reasons I am vehemently against drafting him (or any CB) in the Top 5 of the draft. We have Horn, who I fully believe, on a competent defense can still be a Top 10 CB in this league. Taking another CB in the Top 5 when you have a guy like that is just not a good use of the draft capital, not when the other option is a potential Top 5 WR who can be a serious game changer for the next 10 years. I would rather reach on a DE that I don't like at #1 than take Hunter, even if I like him as a prospect in general. CB is a position you can find great talent in FA and even in the middle rounds of the draft, but you can't find a true outside #1 WR through either of those avenues in today's NFL, those type of WR's don't hit the open market.

again, this is only looking at the box scores, not what actually happened in the games or taking into consideration the coaching and playcalling. Yes he had the same QB last year, but that was with a coaching staff that got poached by the NC runner up. Not to mention we lost a first round pick at LT and all RB as well. That same QB has no time to make plays like he did last year. As you noted about him not playing much against NAU, same thing happened against Colorado and I think one or two other games where he wasn’t even playing much in the 2nd halves. Replace Hunter with T-Mac in that offense and he’d put up utterly insane numbers. If you notice, no “expert” has said he’s been shut down in a few games, because they watch the tape and know it’s the garbage team around him and the beyond atrocious staff (this new staff is BAD, like Rhule for the Panthers level of bad)

Did you even read that post? I literally just said that I like Hunter in that post, just not over T-Mac. The reality of the situation is that there aren't a lot of options at the top of this draft that I like, FOR US RIGHT NOW. And in general, with the #1 pick of a draft, you're really only looking at maybe 4-6 possibilities anyways. Most mocks have the top of the draft with the QB's, Hunter, T-Mac, a few OL, and a DL or two. If we're really looking at the #1 pick in the draft, then there is no reason to look at someone projected to go later than that. We aren't taking an OL so I haven't spent a second looking/thinking about them. None of the DL to me seem worthy of the #1 pick for us, in fact, I see a lot of that DT from Michigan as the Top DL in the draft, which for me is an on starter because we have Brown, too many holes to use the #1 pick on a DT when our current best player is also a DT, even if he's out for the year. So if it's down to the QB's, Hunter, and T-Mac, then it's a two way race and I've said numerous times why I'm going with the WR over a CB at that part of the draft. If we were to win a few games and slide further down the draft to the 5-10 range, then yea, it opens up a wider possibility of options, as then you could take one of the DE's, maybe a LB if there is a star like Kuechly to be found (again, I haven't looked at the position much because w'ere not taking a LB if we get a Top 5 pick). But right now, if we're picking #1, then yea, it's between two guys for me, T-Mac and a CB Hunter, and I'm not taking a CB over T-Mac.

You all can laugh at me all you want, call me a homer, whatever. But when we're looking back on this in 5 years and T-Mac is widely considered a Top 5 WR in this league, if he's not on the Panthers, you're going to realize I was right about him.

The reality though is that there just isn't a traditional #1 pick type of player in this draft to begin with. He might have been below Marvin last year, but I don't think he'd have been below Nabers. And if you think he disappears in some college games, then you're only looking at the box scores, I guarantee you not a single NFL GM will say he disappears in games when watching the tape. Arizona's offense is a MESS this year, the new coaching staff is beyond bad and the fanbase is screaming for them all to be fired, our OL is awful, our QB is playing like utter garbage, and we don't have another weapon to attract any defensive attention. Teams are double and triple teaming him on almost every snap, and when combined with the OL and QB issues, it's just impossible to get him the ball sometimes. And even when our QB forces the pass to him, half the time it's not even catchable given how poor he's been playing. And even despite all that, he's still 3rd in the nation in yards. I've also seen more WR rankings having Burden over Hunter than I have seen Hunter over T-Mac. If we had a true outside #1 WR, then taking someone like Hunter (or Burden) instead of T-Mac would make more sense as if Hunter were to play WR in the NFL, he'd more likely be used a slot guy like Godwin or Kupp. There's a reason most mocks/analysts who don't list Hunter as a CB/WR (or just Athlete) list him as a CB. Because it's his better position and the side of the ball he's more likely to play in the NFL, partially due to his wire thin frame, I don't see him holding up long term as a WR.

Where did I once say we should draft him because he's a projected Top 5 pick? That's one of my many problems with you, your reading comprehension skills are very poor (and/or you just don't care to use your brain, one of the two). I solely used that to point out that me pushing T-Mac isn't some absurd homerism, that at least I'm pushing someone who is deserving of a Top 5 draft pick. And despite me explaining it to you numerous times, you still seem to not grasp how QB's get placed in mock drafts vs draft grades. They are treated entirely different in mock drafts to any other position, because of how teams generally treat them in the draft because of how important the position is. Literally any other position except QB, mock drafts generally follow draft grades with some team needs factored in. But with QB's, draft grades are generally disregarded and they ALWAYS put a few QB's at the very top of the draft, because that's just usually what happens. The exact same thing happened in 2022 with guys like Pickett and Willis widely being Top 10 picks in mock drafts, only for Pickett to fall to what, around 20?, and Willis going in the 2nd round (and even being the 3rd QB if I remember correctly too). The overwhelming majority of draft experts are saying there isn't a high first round grade on these QB's, but they still get mocked there because they're trying to predict how the draft will actually go. That's been my point the entire time, reaching for a QB in a bad QB draft when you have a roster as depleted of talent as ours, does not tend to work out well. And I've never said I'm not open to other players, I've very explicitly said that if a QB or DE stands out come draft time, I'm open to that discussion. That I'd be open to Hunter as a CB but I prefer a WR over a CB at the top of the draft. But we're also not talking about the 15th pick here where there could realistically be all sorts of possible picks to discuss. With the first pick, there really would only be a small handful of options, T-Mac is head and shoulders above any other given our current roster and state of the franchise in general.

I've admitted that since I started pushing us to target T-Mac during last season. But it's also not like I'm trying to push us taking a mid to late 1st round prospect at the top of the draft, he's widely being mocked as a Top 5 guy lately, I've seen some mocks have him as high as #2. So pushing to take a Top 5 guy 1st overall, at a position of need, in a draft without an elite QB or DE prospect, doesn't seem out of line, alumni connection or not. This board has been up in arms for YEARS about not being able to solve our #1 WR problem, and here is someone who not only will solve that for the next decade, but he's also a very unique blend of size/athleticism at the same time. It's a no brainer to me, my bias aside

But you can't not draft weapons just because you don't currently have a great QB to get them the ball, you're drafting a player like T-Mac hoping/expecting him to be your #1 WR for the next decade. And taking someone like him #1 doesn't stop you from still replacing our QBs through another way this offseason. Take T-Mac, then go one of two routes for QB next year, sign someone like Jameis who is going to be able to get the ball to them and help develop those weapons next year while we look for our long term QB the following offseason. Or you try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, start him all year, if he shows he can be the guy, you have your QB, if he doesn't, we're going to be in the Top 10 again and then can take a QB then.

Tetairoa McMillan. The last 28 1st overall picks were either a QB, DE, or OT. Seeing as I don't think we'd take an OT in the 1st and give up on Ickey as an LT yet and there doesn't seem to be a clear overall #1 type of QB or DE pick this year, it very well could be a non conventional #1 overall this year, at least in regards from the last almost 3 decades of drafts. If we didn't have Horn, I'd be more open to Hunter as a CB at #1, but we have him so another CB wouldn't be how I'd use a #1 pick. And as much as I love Legette, if we have SB contending aspirations, I don't think Legette is a #1 on a team like that, but he damn sure is an elite #2 on a team like that. He's more of the Smith/Higgins/Waddle to Brown/Chase/Hill (in terms of role/impact, not style of play of course). T-Mac is going to be the top ranked WR on every team's board in the end. He is going to be a true outside #1 WR who is viewed as a consensus Top 5 WR in the game by his second contract in the same way guys like Jefferson and Chase have done. His height combined with his speed, athleticism, and hands are near impossible to find all in one player, there is a reason his generally used comp is Mike Evans (although as he's not as thick, I personally see him more as an AJ Green). Yes, as an Arizona alum I've admitted to having bias towards the player to begin with. But he's also someone very widely being put into the Top 5 in mock drafts lately and most of them have him as the first non QB offensive player being taken, so it's not really THAT much of a homer pick on my part anyways. If a QB or DE truly separate themselves as being a can't miss prospect come draft day, I'm open to that discussion, but until then, or if it doesn't happen, T-Mac is my pick 100 times out of 100.

Because there's also not a QB that deserves to go #1 right now either. Missing on a QB in the Top 10 is a franchise killer. Missing on a QB at #1 when you just missed on a QB at #1 two years prior after trading a haul to get the pick, is unimaginably bad. At this point my argument against a QB is also less about my desire of drafting T-Mac and just that it's not the year for anyone to take a QB #1, let alone a team devoid of talent in general as we are. That very well could end up changing come draft time, but I just don't think any of the QB's this year are that type of prospect where a team like ours can take the chance on them. We need to draft someone who is 100% going to pan out, and none of these QB's are going to end up like that by draft day.

No, biggest weakness is pass rush, but I don't think there is a blue chip can't miss DE prospect to take at #1 this year, same as with QB. But beyond that, moving forward, yea WR is a pretty damn big weakness. We have 1 game this season over 224 yards passing and just traded away our best WR (who wasn't going to re-sign here anyways). That WR no longer on the team was also the only player we've had this year who had over 78 yards receiving in a game. So again, yea, WR is one of our biggest weaknesses even right now, let alone moving into the future. As I just said in my other post, I love Legette, but he's not going to be a Top 5-10 WR type of guy, Top 15-20 I can see, I think he can be a good #1 WR or an elite #2. After that, what do we have for the future? Thielen isn't part of it, sure as hell isn't going to be Mingo, and as much as we all like Coker, in no world is Coker as our #2 to Legette as the #1 going be considered as "having weapons" at WR, even with Brooks and Sanders. But put someone like T-Mac into that group, who I genuinely think is going to be a Top 5 WR in this league for a long time, and it changes things. A Top 5 WR with Legette/Coker as the 2/3, along with Brooks and Sanders, has the potential to be one of the best set of offensive weapons in the league if they reach their potential.