tukafan21

LOL this is perfect timing as I was posting what I just did in my above post Seeing as I'm from Michigan and my Lions friends constantly give me crap about my reasons for being a Panthers fan. I usually point to us never having back-to-back winning season's in franchise history and that after 25+ years I'm still a die hard fan. Then they quickly shut that argument down by pointing out that in our lifetimes the Lions have won 1 playoff game back in the 90's, while the Panthers have played in two SB's in the time since then, hahahaha As much fun as I have hating on the Lions, and I genuinely love it, we can't hold a candle to their ineptitude as a franchise over the last 25 years.

And while I can't speak for the other "Bryce haters" but so many of the "Bryce lovers" seem to insinuate that the "Bryce haters" are going to be rooting for him to fail. WTF is that about?!?! If that's the case, then you're just not a Panthers fan I have no natural connection to the Panthers, I was a 7 year old kid when the franchise was created and happened to be at the HOF that summer before the first season and as 7 year old kids do. I thought they had a cool logo so my dad bought me a Panthers mini-helmet and I was as much of a "fan" as a 7 year old could be pre-internet days. Then going into the second season they drafted my favorite college player and I was hooked, 25+ years later and I'm still a die-hard Panthers fan (and I have the receipts to prove it, see the pics below). So don't question my Panthers fandom because of how vocal I've been against picking Young, I think sticking by a team that has never had back to back winning seasons, when you have no natural connection to the team, makes me just as much, if not more, of a Panthers fan than anyone. Pre-Biakabutuka evidence Post Biakabutuka pick from my 5th grade photos

No, no he's not If he can stay healthy, he'll be a solid starting NFL QB with upside to be better than that. It's posts like this that bother me as I feel like it lumps people like me in with those who think like this. Every draft pick is a balancing act of weighing out all the pros and cons of a player as well as the cost to acquire said player. My first choice would have been to stay at #9 and see if anyone fell to us, my second choice would have been trading up to a different pick than #1 to take whichever QBs fell to the 3-7 range and save some assets, and my third choice would have been making the trade we made and then taking Stroud. Which is why this is frustrating for most of the "Young haters" as many put it, particularly since we just don't think he's going to be able to stay healthy for a 10+ year career (and frankly, I don't think he'll get close to that, at least not as a starting QB, maybe a backup at that point. I don't think he'll make it as a healthy starting QB to a second contract myself).

I think it's pretty simple, of the top 4 QB prospects, he has the worst physical traits of the 4 along with the easiest potential flaw to predict of any of the 4 as well. That's a very weird combination for the #1 pick of the draft. To take a guy solely because of his mental make up, despite him not having any elite physical traits and banking on him being the best small QB in NFL history is quite the gamble. What he does best are the "easiest" things to coach up while where he lacks in comparison to the other prospects are things that can't be coached up. You can coach up a player to make better decisions and be more accurate, but you can't coach up a guy to get bigger or get a significantly stronger arm, not at this point in their careers, and he is woefully in last place amongst the 4 of them in both of those areas. I also can only speak for myself, but a significant part of my concern is also what we gave up to take that risk on him. There is a very legitimate argument to be made that Young has the lowest ceiling amongst these 4 QBs, which is just very weird to have given up all those assets to then make him the pick knowing that. Once the pick is made, I'm fully on the Young train of course, it's easy to shift from "I don't want to draft him for these very legitimate reasons" to "please just stay healthy" I don't think any of the "Young haters" as you put it don't think he can be successful, we just think the easiest thing to predict of any of these 4 QB's is that he won't be able to stay healthy, so it's a tough pill to swallow knowing that. I just don't like mortgaging our future to take the player with the biggest known risk factor. It's never been about not wanting Young as much as it was wanting other players instead of him as well, which I think is a significant difference and why it won't be hard for the "Young haters" to get on board with him once the pick is made.

Okay guys, I've figured it out (and yes, this is a joke, so don't attack me, just having some fun with it). We told Levis that we're drafting him to get it out there that we love him to scare Indy since rumor is they really want him. Then we're going to trade #1 to the Texans for #2 and #12 so they can take Young. Then we take this newfound interest in Levis as leverage to trade #2 to the Colts for #4 and their 2024 1st. Draft Stroud at #4, JSN at #12, and then snag Harrison Jr with the Colts 1st next year to get the band back together. Win SB's, Profit, GOAT status

Haven't been reading all the posts, so not sure why this was said, but why is this such a common argument by people in today's society? It's such a sad state on today's America that so many people like to call the people they don't agree with politically Pedos or Groomers. The overwhelming odds are that they aren't and it's just disturbing how quick people move to that argument nowadays, it's messed up.

So when this all backfires on us in a few years when Young can't stay healthy, we can blame the Texans for not sealing the deal before we could, good to know.

I'm not forgetting, I'm just saying this week will go right back to the draft within 24 hours. But yes, Rodgers in NY will be the biggest storyline of the season unless Brady makes a shocking comeback.

It will last 24 hours, then take a week or so off and come back with a vengeance in a week or so and then be the biggest storyline in the NFL during the season without question. If this was out of the blue, then yea, it would dominate things, but everyone spent weeks talking about it when it first came out a month or so ago, nothing has changed since then other than the deal being official. It's draft week, the draft will still dominate the NFL storylines this week, maybe not today, but by tomorrow afternoon it will be back to the draft.

Nah, not really Everyone knows we're taking Young and everyone has known about Rodgers going to the Jets for a month now. 24 hours from now nobody will be talking about Rodgers again until they see him at Jets camp, and nobody will care about our pick either because it's been known for about a week that we're going with Young. The unknowns about #2 and onward and how that all plays out will be the story of the week and the main talking points come Monday morning as well.

Probably because they do their best to keep it quiet. If you want to trade back, you want everyone to know so teams come to you with their offers. If you want to trade up, you want to do it quietly so other teams who could be targeting the same position as you aren’t aware.

Wow that’s a lot for a one year rental

They're mostly just "this player physically looks like that player" It's why you really never see comps of players of another color

Completely agree Obviously I hope I'm wrong if he's the pick, and while I understand why so many experts have him as their top graded QB, I think Young ends up as the 3rd or even 4th best QB of this draft in the end. I think Stroud and AR will be better, and think there is a chance Levis is as well, but fully understand why AR and Levis are more of projects and are graded lower, but I think with the right coaching, they both end up better.

For someone who I think will have a better career, so.................. If someone held a gun to my head and told me I have to put my life savings on either Stroud or Young to make the HOF, same odds for both, I'd put my bet on Stroud.

So...... a #1 WR who has had only 1 healthy/good season in his career (4 years ago), a RB who has had one good year and we badly overpaid based on the rest of the RB contract market this year, a league average (at best) TE that we're also overpaying, and an admittedly solid vet presence as a slot WR. And that's before even getting to us taking the wrong QB But sure, let's all get excited over this very average at best set of skill position players. Literally our OL and Defense are better units than that set of skill position players. Sorry, but just calling it like I see it. Also for what it's worth, I don't hate most of the moves we made this offseason, I thought many were great. But Miles, Chark, and Hurst were the 3 moves I hated the most, and nothing to do with the players specifically, but the whole picture. I'd have been fine with both Miles and Hurst if the contracts were cheaper and more in line with what their market value should have been with the rest of this year's FA class. I also don't hate Chark or even his number in a vacuum, it's that I despise going into the season with him as the #1 WR for a rookie QB, would be totally different if he was the #2.

Same, Stroud is a slightly better passer while Young has a slightly better feel for the game. But having said that, I don't think Young is a bad passers and I don't think Stroud has a bad feel for the game, that's where things for me just balance out between them overall when you take size out of the equation. I have them in a neck and neck race even at that point. That's where I then look at the size factor. Everything else can be coached up, but you can't make Young grow taller, and while you can put some weight on him, his overall frame is very slight, he doesn't have the wide base to him that other shorter QB's have had. If they were the exact same size, I'd still say they were dead even prospects, but then the deciding factor for me would be Young's processing ability. But since I don't think Stroud is poor at that, he's still very good just not quite to the level of Young, that's why I don't view it as "taking the worse QB just because he's bigger" like so many of the Young supporters like to say about us Stroud supporters. Because again, it's not just about the processing ability, that's just one factor that Young is better at, but there are other areas that Stroud is better than Young. The gap in their processing ability is significantly smaller than the gap of the potential liability in the size difference for me.

Personally, I don't talk about those actual QB things with the two of them because I think they're basically even level prospects with each better or worse than the other in different aspects of their game, but in the end, I think it evens out. What good is an endless discussion of... "Well Young is better at X, Y, and Z, while Stroud is better a A, B, and C and after weighing all those factors, I think they're even level prospects" Because then the question becomes, "well how do you separate them to pick one over the other?" And the answer to that, for me, is Young's small frame. It's not the only factor and it's not the first factor, it's the final piece of the equation, you have to look at all the other football stuff first, which I've done, and I like them equally from that standpoint.

Yes, this! It's what people don't seem to be grasping with those of us who don't want Young. Stroud has a simpler path to be a good QB in this league, Young needs to be the literal best ever small QB to make this work. We're not saying Young can't do it, but the odds are significantly smaller and it would take a more herculean effort for it to pan out. It's also why I've said too many times to count, that part of what factors into the decision for me is everything we gave up for this pick. If we had the top pick because we finished in last place last year and still had our other 2nd rounder this year, our first next year, our second the year after that, and still had DJ, then I'd be much more open to considering Young as the pick. (Spoiler alert, I'd still want to take Stroud in that situation as I think he's going to have a better career, but I'd be less against the idea of Young in that instance) As if it didn't pan out and we saw it early, we would have the assets to make a move next year to draft someone else from a much deeper class. Exactly what the Titans might do this year after taking Willis or what the Cardinals did after taking Rosen. All of this is also why I was so much against trading a haul to move up this year, too muddy of a QB class without a clear cut #1 to give up everything we did to move up. I'd have been much more comfortable giving up more assets next year in a stronger class (and that's only if one of the Top 4 didn't fall to us at #9, which very well may have happened anyways).

Again, this is why the argument of playing and succeeding in the SEC is a good barometer of a player's skill, particularly for those from schools like Alabama or Georgia due to playing superior players in practice everyday. I made this thread in specific regard to people using playing in the SEC as an argument about why he can withstand the physicality of the NFL. Two VERY VERY different things. Even more so when you talk about it like you are here and using the competition in practice everyday, seeing as QB's aren't allowed to be touched in practice.

Which is the crux of it all, people in the Young camp say people like myself, are basing the decision solely on his size, it's not, it's just a factor in it all, and in the end, yes, it is the deciding factor. But that's only because when you look at everything other than size, Stroud is right there as an equal level prospect (and before you go and bash that, there are PLENTY of NFL experts/analysts/execs/coaches/etc who say that, many who even say he's just the better prospect in general). When they're so close as prospects, size aside, once you then factor that into the equation at the end of the process, that's where it because the easy call for me to say Stroud should be the pick instead of Young. As I've said numerous times, if it was Young vs Levis or AR, then while the size is still part of the equation and it's factored in, it's not the deciding factor because he's that much of a better prospect in other areas that it far outweighs the size factor. I think that is very much lost in this argument by the Young supporters, they think those in the Stroud camp think we're wanting to take the "worse QB" which couldn't be further from the truth. We think they're even level prospects and we're taking the guy we think has the higher likelihood of having a long successful career. Those in the Young camp just want to disregard size due to it being an "unknown factor and anyone can get hurt at anytime." Which while yes, it's true, anyone can get hurt at anytime, doesn't make disregarding his size (in the way they do) a legitimate way to look at this draft pick.

I'm so sick of this argument As The Athletic's article today points out, since 2000 there have been 368 QB's who have played in the league, only 9 of them have been under 6 feet. Yes, as I've said it's not about his height, but his frame/weight/bulk, but that number would be even smaller if looking for players of Young's size. To make any significant revelation based on a sample size like that, it's just flat out ignorant and is only used by teams publicly as a way to help sell it to their fan base. Nobody arguing against Young due to his size is saying bigger QB's are guaranteed to stay healthier, but it's just common sense to say a 5'10" 190 lbs QB has a higher probability to get injured than someone 6'2" and 215 lbs. Yes, anyone could get hurt on any given play, but if you put those two sized QB's up for comparison and you had to pick one or the other as to who is more likely to get injured, you'd have to be fooling yourself to say there isn't even a slightly better chance of the smaller player being injured more often than the bigger player there. No, there are no guarantees, but the people asking for past examples/proof of smaller QB's being more injury prone, and leaning on a sample size of 9 out of 368, is just completely asinine in itself. Hell, even if all 9 of those guys kept getting hurt and thus helping my argument, I'd still say it's far too small of a sample size to be used in these discussions.

It's quite interesting that everyone here who wants Young just disregards his size as an issue and points to weird random data points as to why "smaller QB's aren't more likely to get injured" Despite every NFL expert and analyst openly talking about how his size and possible durability issues are 100% factors in the decision, but in their minds, his football skillset makes it worth that risk. And that's just those that still say Young should be the #1 pick, there are plenty out there that think it should be Stroud. That's NOT the argument most Young supporters here make, they say the size factor is irrelevant based on any number of factors, whether it be NFL rules, past data about smaller QB's (even though they're all still bigger than Young), or whatever they want to point to. That to me is very telling in how most Young supporters here talk about him, I'd have less of an issue if they'd say it concerned them but they think he's good enough that it's worth the risk. Yes, some argue that, but not most, most just dismiss his size as a non-factor. I'm gonna side with the "experts" on that one, very few, if any, have said that his size are a completely non-factor in the way so many on here talk about him.

Call me crazy, but trying to predict Young's durability by comparing him to guys who are 20+ lbs heavier than him is rather flawed and not very relevant.

Bryce Young will be the pick, he'll show plenty of things in his first couple years that has fans excited over him. But by the end of his rookie contract people will realize we made a mistake and took a guy who is injury prone and we'll be debating whether it's worth paying $40 million a year for a QB who only can play 10-12 games a season and likely misses playoff games like Lamar due to being injured late in the season. That's my prediction, don't @ me on it in the next year when he shows flashes of being a good player, come talk to me in 4 years when he can't stay on the field.