tukafan21

Where did I once say we should draft him because he's a projected Top 5 pick? That's one of my many problems with you, your reading comprehension skills are very poor (and/or you just don't care to use your brain, one of the two). I solely used that to point out that me pushing T-Mac isn't some absurd homerism, that at least I'm pushing someone who is deserving of a Top 5 draft pick. And despite me explaining it to you numerous times, you still seem to not grasp how QB's get placed in mock drafts vs draft grades. They are treated entirely different in mock drafts to any other position, because of how teams generally treat them in the draft because of how important the position is. Literally any other position except QB, mock drafts generally follow draft grades with some team needs factored in. But with QB's, draft grades are generally disregarded and they ALWAYS put a few QB's at the very top of the draft, because that's just usually what happens. The exact same thing happened in 2022 with guys like Pickett and Willis widely being Top 10 picks in mock drafts, only for Pickett to fall to what, around 20?, and Willis going in the 2nd round (and even being the 3rd QB if I remember correctly too). The overwhelming majority of draft experts are saying there isn't a high first round grade on these QB's, but they still get mocked there because they're trying to predict how the draft will actually go. That's been my point the entire time, reaching for a QB in a bad QB draft when you have a roster as depleted of talent as ours, does not tend to work out well. And I've never said I'm not open to other players, I've very explicitly said that if a QB or DE stands out come draft time, I'm open to that discussion. That I'd be open to Hunter as a CB but I prefer a WR over a CB at the top of the draft. But we're also not talking about the 15th pick here where there could realistically be all sorts of possible picks to discuss. With the first pick, there really would only be a small handful of options, T-Mac is head and shoulders above any other given our current roster and state of the franchise in general.

I've admitted that since I started pushing us to target T-Mac during last season. But it's also not like I'm trying to push us taking a mid to late 1st round prospect at the top of the draft, he's widely being mocked as a Top 5 guy lately, I've seen some mocks have him as high as #2. So pushing to take a Top 5 guy 1st overall, at a position of need, in a draft without an elite QB or DE prospect, doesn't seem out of line, alumni connection or not. This board has been up in arms for YEARS about not being able to solve our #1 WR problem, and here is someone who not only will solve that for the next decade, but he's also a very unique blend of size/athleticism at the same time. It's a no brainer to me, my bias aside

But you can't not draft weapons just because you don't currently have a great QB to get them the ball, you're drafting a player like T-Mac hoping/expecting him to be your #1 WR for the next decade. And taking someone like him #1 doesn't stop you from still replacing our QBs through another way this offseason. Take T-Mac, then go one of two routes for QB next year, sign someone like Jameis who is going to be able to get the ball to them and help develop those weapons next year while we look for our long term QB the following offseason. Or you try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, start him all year, if he shows he can be the guy, you have your QB, if he doesn't, we're going to be in the Top 10 again and then can take a QB then.

Tetairoa McMillan. The last 28 1st overall picks were either a QB, DE, or OT. Seeing as I don't think we'd take an OT in the 1st and give up on Ickey as an LT yet and there doesn't seem to be a clear overall #1 type of QB or DE pick this year, it very well could be a non conventional #1 overall this year, at least in regards from the last almost 3 decades of drafts. If we didn't have Horn, I'd be more open to Hunter as a CB at #1, but we have him so another CB wouldn't be how I'd use a #1 pick. And as much as I love Legette, if we have SB contending aspirations, I don't think Legette is a #1 on a team like that, but he damn sure is an elite #2 on a team like that. He's more of the Smith/Higgins/Waddle to Brown/Chase/Hill (in terms of role/impact, not style of play of course). T-Mac is going to be the top ranked WR on every team's board in the end. He is going to be a true outside #1 WR who is viewed as a consensus Top 5 WR in the game by his second contract in the same way guys like Jefferson and Chase have done. His height combined with his speed, athleticism, and hands are near impossible to find all in one player, there is a reason his generally used comp is Mike Evans (although as he's not as thick, I personally see him more as an AJ Green). Yes, as an Arizona alum I've admitted to having bias towards the player to begin with. But he's also someone very widely being put into the Top 5 in mock drafts lately and most of them have him as the first non QB offensive player being taken, so it's not really THAT much of a homer pick on my part anyways. If a QB or DE truly separate themselves as being a can't miss prospect come draft day, I'm open to that discussion, but until then, or if it doesn't happen, T-Mac is my pick 100 times out of 100.

Because there's also not a QB that deserves to go #1 right now either. Missing on a QB in the Top 10 is a franchise killer. Missing on a QB at #1 when you just missed on a QB at #1 two years prior after trading a haul to get the pick, is unimaginably bad. At this point my argument against a QB is also less about my desire of drafting T-Mac and just that it's not the year for anyone to take a QB #1, let alone a team devoid of talent in general as we are. That very well could end up changing come draft time, but I just don't think any of the QB's this year are that type of prospect where a team like ours can take the chance on them. We need to draft someone who is 100% going to pan out, and none of these QB's are going to end up like that by draft day.

No, biggest weakness is pass rush, but I don't think there is a blue chip can't miss DE prospect to take at #1 this year, same as with QB. But beyond that, moving forward, yea WR is a pretty damn big weakness. We have 1 game this season over 224 yards passing and just traded away our best WR (who wasn't going to re-sign here anyways). That WR no longer on the team was also the only player we've had this year who had over 78 yards receiving in a game. So again, yea, WR is one of our biggest weaknesses even right now, let alone moving into the future. As I just said in my other post, I love Legette, but he's not going to be a Top 5-10 WR type of guy, Top 15-20 I can see, I think he can be a good #1 WR or an elite #2. After that, what do we have for the future? Thielen isn't part of it, sure as hell isn't going to be Mingo, and as much as we all like Coker, in no world is Coker as our #2 to Legette as the #1 going be considered as "having weapons" at WR, even with Brooks and Sanders. But put someone like T-Mac into that group, who I genuinely think is going to be a Top 5 WR in this league for a long time, and it changes things. A Top 5 WR with Legette/Coker as the 2/3, along with Brooks and Sanders, has the potential to be one of the best set of offensive weapons in the league if they reach their potential.

No, not saying I just go by what they say. I look at what they say and take it into account when I watch their breakdowns of said players and then make my own opinions, from a variety of analysts from multiple networks. But I don't do it for drafts 2 years out, I just pay attention to the ones in the upcoming draft and at positions we may be targeting, such as QB and WR in this upcoming draft. Which is why even though yea, a lot of scouts really liked Bryce 2 years ago, I was vehemently against drafting him, because of the major limitations I saw in his tape. If by the draft, these analysts are sold on one of these QBs and then I agree with them with what I'm seeing with my eyes, then yea, I'd be open to drafting one. Right now though, I'm not seeing it from any of these guys yet, sure, they all have plenty of flashes to show they could be elite. But none of them look like they're enough of a can't miss prospect for us to take them with the state of our roster right now. If we had a more built out roster right now, then I'd also be more open to taking the risk on another QB this quickly. But we don't and we have a chance to take someone I genuinely believe is a can't miss prospect who will be a Top 5 WR in this league for a while. For a franchise in a state that we are in right now, taking another QB who flops will be FAR worse for our franchise than passing on a questionable #1 pick QB prospect who turns into a star and instead end up with a perennial All Pro candidate at WR as a consolation prize. And while I said I don't blindly trust the experts, it's hard to not see that they've been right about that the last few years, they said it before 2022 and 2023 and they were both years without can't miss QB prospects (look at Pickett, Willis, Bryce, and A-Rich right now) and for a couple years before 2024 they were saying it would be a great class, and it really looks like it should be. So yea, in general, I trust that this is a bad year to reach on a QB at #1 with what they're saying about next year right now. To your point about taking Hunter over T-Mac as a WR, hard pass, I'd take Burden over a WR Hunter if not going with T-Mac (albeit not at #1 of course). Hunter is going to be a CB in the NFL who gets the occasional snaps at WR. Beyond that just being his better side of the ball in general, he's really slender and is struggling to stay healthy in college, granted part of it is playing both ways. But in the more physical NFL, he's not built to stay healthy as a WR, he's dealt with injuries each of his 3 years in college so far already. I won't fight taking Hunter as a CB in general, but I still can't get on board with taking him over an offensive difference maker like T-Mac, not as a CB when we also have Horn. If a true elite DE or QB were to show by the end of the year, I wouldn't be against one of them over T-Mac, but other than those two positions having someone stand out, I wouldn't take anyone else over T-Mac, and I'd 100% honestly still feel that way if I wasn't an Arizona alum. If T-Mac wasn't 6'5" with the rest of his intangibles, then I might not feel so strongly about it as well. That size for someone who isn't a plodding big man is so rare to find, he's going to be a unique weapon in a league filled with crazy talent. Just look at what Mike Evans has done to us in his career, who he's most compared to (although personally I see him more as AJ Green as he's not as thick as Evans). There's only a few guys out there like that, I can't pass on getting one of them on our team for a change at a position of need that we haven't filled since we lost Smitty. He's going to be the true elite #1 that puts up big stats while also opening things up for everyone else because of the attention he draws. He can be our own Jefferson, Tyreek, Chase, etc, he's different than all of them, but they're also different from each other as well. I love Legette, but he's never going to be THAT guy, he can be a Top 15-20 WR type of guy, a decent #1 or a truly elite #2 on a contender, but T-Mac is going to be THAT guy.

Sweet jebus this is idiotic Yes, overall team success in this league, you need a good QB, but beyond just that painfully obvious fact, let's get into the rest of the stupid in there......... First things first, you say.. "if we need a good QB for him to have success, then why are you drafting that player with the #1 pick" Show me one time I've ever said we would need a good QB for T-Mac himself to have success... you can't, because I never have. I think you're referring to the "he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB" part of my post, which is very clearly talking about said QB, not T-Mac. The other way to interpret that is just overall team success, which again, wouldn't be anything about T-Mac or his ability to impact the offense or overall team wins and losses. I'm quite sure I could do this with a number of teams over the years, but I don't want to spend the time to do multiple, so I'll keep it to just the 2023 Vikings right now since you wanted to use Jefferson as your example....... The Vikings went 3-6 after Cousins went down last year. And two of those wins came before Jefferson even came back from his own injury, they were 1-4 in the final 5 weeks after Jefferson came back. In those 5 games, Jefferson had 31 catches, 503 yards, and 2 TDs Having the WR you specifically called out didn't help them go better than 1-4 with a bad QB, even though he still put up a great stat line for that time period either. It also didn't make that QB good enough to where they then went out and brought in TWO new QB's this year to replace Doubs and Mullens who started down the stretch for them last year. And that's with 4th year Jefferson, not a rookie that T-Mac would be If you expect a WR getting drafted #1 overall to be the player to turn a franchise as bad as we are around in 1 season, make whatever QB we're able to put in there be successful, and lead us to a solid season, then you are literally insane. We are AWFUL, we have a few young guys who could turn into great players, but we are so far from being a good team, that there isn't any player we could draft next year that is going to change that in 2025.

I'm not going to pretend I follow future draft classes like that to rattle off the names, but basically every college and draft expert has been talking about that for a while. While at the same time, even if that doesn't pan out, it doesn't change that this year's class just doesn't have that elite QB talent anyways, and reaching on a QB just because you need one is never a smart idea to begin with. And Manning was never going to keep Ewers on the bench, he always knew he'd be sitting for 2 years until Ewers left, no matter how good he was, it was never going to be an open competition that he could win, just now how they did it and the Manning family was okay with that, if they weren't, he never would have gone back to Texas this year to begin with. We've reached to try and fix our QB spot for what, 4 out of the last 5 years, with this season being the first time we didn't make a knee jerk reaction, because frankly we couldn't after just 1 year of Bryce. We reached on Two Gloves being the fix, then reached back to back years in bad trades for Darnold and Baker without giving them the supporting cast to succeed like they both are now, and then reached on the trade for Bryce. Reaching just out of need, doesn't work, period. This roster is too depleted on talent, particularly skill positions, to try and fit a square peg into a round hole at QB. Build up the roster and then insert the QB, it doesn't even need to be a Top 10 pick if you built out a solid roster around them. Look at teams like the Lions or Falcons right now. Build up the proper assets for a few years and then find a way to insert a QB capable of taking advantage of those weapons. We keep trying to do the opposite and it's tanking our QB's chances of succeeding before they ever take the field. I still say we take T-Mac, try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, and let them start all year long. Either we find our diamond in the rough at QB on the cheap or he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB who will have a true #1 and high end #2 (Legette) who are in their 2nd and 3rd year's respectively to give them great weapons to help them succeed early. Or you go after someone like Jameis, he's not going to make you a contender, but he can sling the rock, which will help develop those young weapons like Legette, Sanders, Brooks, and hopefully T-Mac as they'll get peppered with targets unlike what Bryce would give you.

This draft is 2023 all over again, it's not hard to see. QB's who don't grade out as high first round prospects while at the same time, the following draft class looks to be loaded with elite QB prospects. Drafting a QB just because you need one (or making a bad trade to make said draft pick), when there isn't one worthy of that draft pick, is how you ruin franchises, just look at us right now.

LOL... Yet again proving you can't look below anything than what you see on the surface Mock drafts ARE NOT draft grades They are what people think will happen. They are mocking teams taking QB's in the top 5 of the draft because that's just historically how drafts go regardless of the grades on the QBs. Almost every draft expert, even those mocking QB's going high, have said time and time again that none of these QB's actually grade out as those type of picks. This is again, where I say you don't like to actually read what I have to say, because I already explained it. 2022 the exact same thing happened, mock drafts had guys like Pickett and Willis going in the Top 5 because that's just what teams usually do, but GM's listened to their prospect grades and knew they weren't worth taking that high, so they didn't. It's not to say QB's won't go that high this year, but it's to say that they aren't graded out as elite QB prospects. And yes, I've never said I'm not a T-Mac homer. But me being that doesn't change that he will be the highest graded offensive player in this year's draft, at a position we haven't been able to solve since we lost Smitty. Taking him makes all the sense in the world, my bias aside. As even without my Arizona connection, he's 100% who I'd still want to draft. We are a roster void of talent and he has the chance to be a very rare type of WR in this league with his size, speed, and hands. There is a reason PFF has him as their #1 offensive player in the draft, and it's because guys like him are unicorns in this league.

Oh good lord Interest doesn't mean interest in making a bad trade to take the player, that's why I had such a long post, to accurately describe why those are two different things, but you don't like to listen to that stuff. Being interested in a player doesn't live in a vacuum. It's very simple... there isn't a #1 draft pick type of grade on any of these QB's, if there was, we'd just take them. You can't bluff a pick everyone knows you won't make, and trying to trade the pick is the CLEAR signal that you're not taking the QB. Just because the Raiders would have interest, doesn't mean they're going to bail us out of a situation we don't want to be in, they'd be smart about it and just sit put, let us take a non QB as we'd be telling the world we're not taking one just by trying to trade the pick, and then they'd take him at #2 (either with their own pick or by trading less to get that one). Oh, and your point of "if nobody is willing to make the trade, you obviously just take the best QB" is quite literally the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. If nobody is willing to trade up to take the QB, then it's OBVIOUS that the QB isn't worth taking with that pick, so OBVIOUSLY taking the best QB there is just OBVIOUSLY stupid and a bad pick. The moral of it is if there is a QB worth taking, we're taking them and not making the trade. If there isn't a QB worth taking there, nobody is trading up to #1 to take one, we just showed the NFL how bad of an idea that is 2 years ago, it's really not hard to see. You keep making up this mythical situation where there is a QB who has shown to be worth trading up to #1 for and we'll be able to leverage that into a trade. But we're the most QB needy team in the league, if we end up with the #1 pick, either we are taking a QB #1 or no QB is going #1 unless we get VERY lucky and two teams in the Top 5 fall in love with one prospect and we can play them off each other and fleece one of them. But again, I can't see that happening, as if there was a QB worthy of that, we're just taking him ourselves.

the very long didn't read version of this is....... If there is a QB worth trading up for at #1, we would take them ourselves If there isn't a QB worth taking at #1, then we can't bluff that we're taking one as nobody will be dumb enough to think we're passing on said QB because we have the worst QB situation in the league. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean other teams will want to get fleeced, there's only one Panthers team out there, and we can't fleece ourselves unfortunately.

This is a perfect post... to show how you can't seem to stop viewing things from a Madden GM viewpoint. Just because teams are in the market for a QB, doesn't mean they are going to make dumb trades to move up to #1 to take one in a draft where none of them are worthy of doing so. The first issue is you point out how teams will be in the market for a QB, but seem to forget that we literally have the worst QB situation in the entire league right now. So you can't bluff taking a QB at #1 while trying to trade the pick. This isn't a Bears/Fields situation where there is a legitimate argument to him still being able to be a franchise QB if you gave him weapons and that you're open to trading the pick to give him another season. If we're trying to trade the pick, every team will know we have no interest in taking a QB at #1, and thus nobody is going to make a trade with us to take the QB, if they wanted a QB that badly, they'd target the #2 pick knowing we're taking a non-QB. Beyond all that, the real issue is that this draft is much closer to 2022 than 2023... That was a draft where some mocks had guys like Pickett or Willis going in the Top 10 because teams needed QBs and they tend to overdraft them so people predicted it happening, even though almost every draft expert admitted they don't have 1st round grades. And in the end, teams weren't stupid and the first QB taken was late in the 1st round, unlike in 2023 when teams reached for players that nobody actually graded that high. And what's the result of that as of right now? the 2023 #1 and #4 picks have already been benched for geriatric backups and the current narrative is that teams need to stop taking QB projects high in the draft. Your example is basically like playing poker, showing that your hand is a pair of 2's and bluffing by going all in, your bluff is going to get called because they know your hand. Sure, some of these QB's could end up panning out as great NFL players, but none of them have shown to be worthy of taking with the #1 pick yet, let alone making a trade to move up there to take them. We literally are showing the league right now how horrible that idea is, to think a team is going to then make that type of trade with us is just asinine. If we hadn't made that trade in 2023 and showing the league right now how bad a trade like that is to make, then maybe a trade would be more feasible, but we're unfortunately showing the other 31 teams how dumb of an idea that is in a draft with QB prospects who don't grade out that high in the draft. Then you say you're good with taking these guys at #2, if that's the case, then you just take them at #1 instead of forcing a QB or DE pick that isn't the right decision. Making a pick based on the history of who gets drafted at #1 is just beyond dumb. Realistically the only way I think we can trade back because someone wants a QB is if they are as dumb as we were 2 years ago (seems unlikely) or we get lucky and the teams at #2 and #3 fall in love with only 1 QB and are willing to overdraft them, so we're able to convince one of them to swap picks to take them before the other team. Which yes, if that happens, you do it, but talking about that situation is pretty much pointless as it seems unlikely to happen in a year without a clear cut #1 QB, let alone that QB being worth trading up to the #1 pick to take them... because again, the key point to all of this, is if there was a QB like that, we would just take them ourselves. It's basically the 2023 draft all over again, except we're not the Bears with a QB who still could pan out, so we have no leverage in trying to trade the pick. I'd say best case scenario of a trade would be moving back a couple picks and picking up like a 3rd rounder to do so, I don't think any QB in this draft will garner another 1st or 2nd round pick to move back a few slots. Which if that's the case, I'd rather just take our #1 guy on our board than risk them getting taken before us if we move back to the 3-6 range to pick up an extra mid round pick.

I think the decline is more just the need for QB’s and DE’s, but there really just won’t be a blue chip prospect at those positions in this draft. T-Mac will be a Top 10 WR within a few years and a very real chance of being a Top 5 WR by his 2nd contract, don’t over think it, take the true outside #1 WR game changer and call it a day.

Oh and btw, the last time a non QB, DE, or OT has gone #1 overall, it was when Keyshawn went first. So again, basing our selection (assuming we can’t trade back) on recent history of positions of other #1 draft picks just makes no sense. You take the best player for your needs, which for us and with who is likely Top 10 picks, I very strongly believe to be T-Mac. It’s how you build a roster in today’s NFL, get the impact skill position players in place, then find your QB so they have those weapons from their first snap, not the other way around like we tried with Bryce

You say this as if trading back would be no problem at all But if we’re at #1 and there isn’t an obvious QB for us to take ourselves, the. It’s going to be difficult to trade back. As even just signaling we want to trade back will tell teams we’re not taking a QB, and if that’s the case, if a team sitting at 2-5 in the draft wants a QB, they have no motivation to trade with us since they’d know we weren't taking said QB. They’d either just stay put or trade into #2 for cheaper to get the QB since we’d clearly be taking someone else. So yes, trading back would be ideal, but it’s easier said than done since there probably it won’t be another team out there as dumb as we were last year to make a bad trade. Of all the players projected to go in that Top 10 area, T-Mac literally might be the best fit for us, so just take him if we can’t trade back, don’t force a pick in the end just because it’s the #1 pick T-Mac, Legette, Brooks, Sanders would be a dangerous young group of weapons for any QB we can replace Bryce with

Aren’t you the same person who has been advocating to take Hunter at #1 overall? Someone who is more than likely going to be a CB in the NFL, a position that I don’t think has ever had someone go #1, because they never should be taken #1 I think over the next 10 years or so, there will be a bunch of WRs who go #1 overall with the way the game is shifting to being which a passing league. Unless you have a Mahomes, which nobody else does, it’s near impossible to contend these days without a true elite WR Really, QB, DE, and OT are the only positions to get drafted #1 overall over the last 20 years or so. Just not sure there is someone at those positions worthy of us taking first overall if we have the pick, and if we can’t trade back and have to make the selection there, I think a true elite WR is exactly what we need to take, it’s been our biggest hole for a long time.

Big difference in taking WRs in the 2nd (or last pick in the first) and hoping they pan out, and taking the top WR in the draft who is going to go in the Top 10 at worst and very possibly Top 5 based on team needs. Nobody was saying Legette, Mingo, or TMJ were going to be can't miss prospects, but I think every draft analyst will be saying T-Mac is going to be such a prospect. They're not even comparable situations.

I'd go with that WR from Arizona, can't think of his name though

If we take Burden over T-Mac I'm burning all my Panthers gear and finding a new team, that would just be so dumb to pass up the 6'5" true outside #1 WR to take the 5'11" guy who is going to play most of his career in the Slot.

And even then, they're grading all these QB's as mid 1st rounders at best, if not 2nd rounders It's just flat out not a year to draft a QB, no matter how bad we need one. There will be 3-4 QB's minimum in next year's draft that will all be graded higher than any from this year

T-Mac has Top 5 position potential by his second contract, not going to be many players with that kind of potential in the draft and it’s one of our biggest positions of need. Having an elite WR can change an entire offense and he’s the best in the draft. WRs with his combo of size/speed/hands are near impossible to find, don’t over think it, take the best offensive player in this draft and be happy

Yep, and he's admittedly had some pretty bad statistical games, but anyone who's watched the games can tell you it's not because of him. The offense has been a mess under this new staff and our QB has been pretty bad all year, all that combined with teams double and triple teaming him most plays because we have nobody else who scares anyone, it's limited his chances. Even having said all that, he's still at 982 yards thru 8 games this year, but stats in his favor or against him aside, he's going to be a Top 10 pick at worst, very possible Top 5, and he'll be the first WR off the board, I'd bet my bottom dollar on that. Given it being such a position of need for us, he's my pick no matter what, although if we did end up #1 and could trade down a couple spots and still be sure to get him, I'd of course like to do that to get more assets as well.

T-Mac having himself a game, 10 rec, 202 yards, 1 TD, with a few highlight reel plays and should have just had a TD pass as well on a crazy play but our QB dropped the ball when he would have walked backwards into the end zone (would have been his 2nd impressive pass of the day as they ran a flea flicker earlier that he ran all over before making a solid pass). He's the pick, I don't care if we're at #1, he should be the pick, he's going to be a STUD in this league for the next decade plus. It's a hole we haven't been able to fill since Smitty, it will help whoever our future QB is, he's just flat out the pick.