tukafan21

At this level, you can't win without both, but talent is more important than coaching. The best coaching at this level just can't win if they don't have the talent. But the best talent can absolutely carry bad coaches to success and can even take them on deep playoff runs. But in the end, you still need elite coaching to win a SB unless you happen to strike gold with the right talent, like we almost did in 2015. Talent is more important as the base of a team Coaching is more important to consistently win and contend at the highest of levels, but it can't do so without that base first.

Yes and no, obviously it's clearly too early to come to any conclusion on him as a player. But the more we lose, the more it raises the stakes on what he has to become in his career for it to be a successful pick. If we give the Bears a Top 2 pick, Bryce then needs to win us a SB and likely be a HOFer for that trade to ever be deemed a success. Just no other way to slice it if we end up giving away Caleb or Maye (or Sanders) on top of all the other assets we had to give up to get Bryce.

Yes it was Overall value might not have been THAT different, but in the end, it 100% would be different since it's 3, not 1, and that difference would have almost assuredly been DJ Moore (if not more). The reason the Bears insisted on Moore being in the trade was because of the weak WR FA and Draft class and them needing an immediate #1 for Fields. That wouldn't have been a thing for the Cardinals, particularly since at the time of the trade, they also still had Hopkins. He likely wouldn't have even been asked about by the Cardinals, let alone being the deal breaker in getting the trade done like he was with the Bears. I think more likely, if we traded to #3 with the Cardinals, we would have ended up including Burns while keeping Moore and keeping possibly both the 2nd rounders we gave up. #9, 2024 1st, and Burns likely would have been more than enough to move up to #3. Give me AR, Moore, whoever we'd draft with that 2nd rounder this past year, and the 2nd in 2025 over Bryce and Burns (with this current situation with him) any day of the week.

The difference is that we weren't winning those games late last year because of the offense, it was the defense that was carrying us. We then didn't lose any significant defensive players (at least before in-season injuries) while adding a few nice pieces as well. Then on offense we brought back the entire OL while actually upgrading a few of the backups from the crap he had last year. We brought in Sanders, who while woefully overpaid, is still a better player than Foreman is, while also bringing in Hurst as an upgrade at TE. And sure we lost Moore which doesn't help, the WR room as a while is better last year with the additions of Thielen, Chark, Mingo. I was never someone who thought we were a QB away from being legit contenders, I spent the entire offseason saying we were a 7 to 9 win team that would have a shot at the division or wild card, which I think that was a totally fair view of the team. But again, the real problem is that the team sold the fans on Bryce because of his plug and play ability with the roster built around him. If they sold him as the developmental prospect that he's looked like so far, after giving up what we did to get him, there would have been a serious mutiny by the fan base. So sure, the team put Bryce in this position and that's not his fault, but that doesn't matter to the fans (nor should it) and he has to try and live up to what we traded away to get him.

It doesn't matter if the anger should be directed at the front office or that it's not Bryce's fault that we gave up so much to get him, that's life in the NFL, you get judge based on the whole, not the parts. You can't discredit the size concerns since so many people had those issues with him pre-draft. So asking "would you feel this way if he was 6'2" is just a completely pointless discussion as he's not going to magically grow another 4 inches. You can't bring up his OL as the reason for it as Stroud is playing behind a significantly worse OL situation, literally their entire starting OL is hurt right now and playing backups. And then it's also not fair to say he's struggling because it's a difficult situation. The only reason so many people were even minimally okay with drafting him, was because he was supposed to be the most pro-ready QB who was being drafted by a team that was pretty solid late last year and really was just missing the QB. To then give away the future and take him for him to look downright horrible (honestly, take away screen passes and he's been the worst QB in the league this year by far) is just not okay, no matter how you slice it. Can he still become a solid QB? Sure... but he'll never live up to that trade and that will always be a problem, whether it's his fault or not.

That would be my top trade preference as well, the problem with it is that the Lions are going to have to give Hutch a huge contract next offseason, doubt they want to give up on Williams this quickly, while also giving up another 1st, to then turn around and have 2 of the top 5 paid pass rushers in the league. If they didn't have Hutch, I think that's a trade that makes sense for both sides and might have happened, but Hutch and the way he's been playing screws it all up for us.

I don't think Herbert becomes the player he is right now if he's drafted by a Rhule run team. There were a lot of question marks on Herbert, some of which are still out there in terms of his ability to read defenses. Put him under Rhule and there is a chance he's a bust in the end, so much of a QB's success comes down to their early coaching in the NFL.

Do the people who are upset with Tepper as the owner realize that the next NFL that was sold/bought was the Broncos, the one team who is rivaling us for dumbest moves at the moment. I still think far too much blame is being placed on him, I think he's actually doing a decent job at letting the football people make the final decisions (outside of forcing the trade which was god awful, but again, that's on the GM for making a bad trade in the end). What we need to do is go back and undo the trade, then trade up to #3 with the Cardinals and take Stroud or AR, whichever fell to #3. We'd have saved some assets, maybe Moore, and be in a significantly better position right now.

If Stroud and AR end up being high end starters and the pick we give up next year turns into Williams or Maye and they end up that way, without question it will be the worst trade ever. The others people have mentioned don't even come close because these will be about the most important position in the game, where we took the 1 bust while simultaneously passing up 2 great QB's and giving away a possible generational talent with that first next year. The closest would be the 49ers Lance trade, but at most it's keeping them from being the unquestioned SB favorites every year and instead just being one of the favorites, while ours could be killing this franchise for the next 5 years. Unmittigated disaster

Yea, and he was so bad that they had the 6th pick in the draft and took Waddle, then they went out the next offseason and traded for Tyreek. Not to mention they have one of the best offensive minds in the league right now. The two situations are not remotely close to being comparable as we don't have that coach, we don't have that draft pick next year, and we don't even have our draft assets to try and trade for a Tyreek.

When you trade 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and your best offensive player for the pick, you’re not a victim of draft position, you just have to live up to that trade regardless.

Burns probably was a more valuable piece on the open NFL market, pass rushers with his potential just do. But in that specific trade, DJ was the more valuable player that the Bears really wanted. They needed to get Fields a weapon and there wasn't anyone great in free agency this summer (as we well know, seeing as we don't have a true #1).

I think it's more just that he didn't think through his exact words before saying them. I'd bet good money that what he really meant was, "I called a play with a 1st read that I wouldn't call for any other player than Thielen" which is totally fair to say. Not defending the coaches, but I think that is one to just nitpick specific words when you know what he REALLY meant by it.

The problem is that they sold the fans on Bryce being worth trading away our top WR and our future with all the picks for this QB because the rest of the team was built to contend right now if we dropped in the right QB. I also don't think it's fair to say this team isn't talented, it's the same OL as last year (granted injuries) with most of the same WRs except losing DJ and adding Thielen, Chark, Mingo, which while none are as good as DJ, on the collective that's actually an upgraded WR room overall, and a more talented (albeit overpaid) RB in Sanders over Foreman. You can't do all that and then play the way Bryce has, whether that's fair to him as a rookie or not, it's just the truth. Maybe some of it is the coaching and play calling, that's of course fair to say, but Bryce just hasn't looked good, there's no other way to put it. The scary part is the part of him that was supposed to be next level, his seeing of the field, his movement in the pocket, his processing, etc, has not been seen outside of a very select few plays. Then some of the concerns with him as a prospect have been seen already with his size/strength being a limitation and staying healthy. Dalton was able to throw downfield just fine with the same players around him, in the pouring rain, but Bryce just can't do it and is very skittish in the pocket. Trading away the 1st pick in the draft in a season with someone like Caleb Williams, to take the QB who lead you to that last place finish, while not showing his supposed pre-draft strengths and showing his pre-draft concerns, would be epically bad.

This was always the problem with drafting Bryce, because he never was the type of player to have those “wow” type of plays. He was a player who would beat you cerebrally, like Brady did for all those years. Brady would have “wow” drives, but even he really didn’t have the individual “wow” plays because it wasn’t his style of game. The problem is it’s looking like we were sold some snake oil based on off field stuff that isn’t translating to the field at this level. And by “we” I mean the team, as I never wanted to draft him anyways, even before the trade he was the one guy in the draft I didn’t want. This all seemed very foreseeable

No, not “later in the season” If we’re 0-9 it will be one of the biggest storylines in the league because of what I just laid out. Assuming they aren’t injured and miss the games, starting 0-9 means Bryce will have lost to Stroud, AR, and the team that owns our #1 pick next year in 3 consecutive weeks. The NFL media wouldn’t be able to shut up about it

There is a very real possibility that a month from now, the narrative in the media is that the Panthers had the worst offseason and first half of the season combination in the history of the league. Traded away our future to take a QB who is looking pretty rough while the 2 QB's we passed on are looking very very legit. Signed players like Sanders and Chark to sizable contracts and are doing absolutely nothing. Couldn't work out a new contract with Burns. Now seems all but a given that we're going to start the season 0-6, can't see how we beat Detroit or Miami, and then will head into our bye week. Who do we get coming out of the bye? Only the 2 QB's we passed on in the draft, back to back. Then who do we get the week after that? The team we traded our future to and if they beat us, will almost all but guarantee us handing over the #1 pick to them at the same time. If we go into the bye 0-6 and then lose those 3 games right after it, given our current connection to those 3 teams, it will be the lowest I've ever felt as a sports fan in my life (and I don't mean Panthers, I mean all my teams, sports, fantasy, my own sporting life, etc). It's honestly baffling to think about how that all has happened and I'm not sure there is a case to be made for any other team having a worse offseason/start to a season before when you take all things into consideration.

HELLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOO He's the last thing we need right now, he's a big plodding WR, we need someone with some juice to their game. Not to mention his lack of effort is his biggest issue. Sure, if they cut him, I wouldn't be against bringing him in to see if he can do anything, but I wouldn't even give up a conditional 7th for him right now, we can't keep trading our picks for bad players.

What a bad take, with how much it costs to go to an NFL game these days, you can't blame the fans for not wanting to put out that kinda money to watch this team right now. I live in Michigan, the Panthers have only been here a handful of times, there is a 0.0% chance I'm going to the game next week, this team isn't deserving of me spending my money on them right now.

We deal with the suck for the next 2 seasons and draft Shadeur Sanders in 2025 or deal with it for 3 years and draft Arch Manning in 2026. This is the lowest I've ever felt as a Panthers fan, there really is nothing to be optimistic about right now.

5 Sacks for 55 yards lost and a fumble that was returned for a TD Everything we were told Bryce does at a level never seen in a recruit before, he's severely struggling with. Where is this magician in the pocket? He plays like a scared kid out there, size aside.

If you fire Reich, might as well try and trade Bryce by the deadline too. If you fire a HC 4 games into his tenure, after he traded away the farm to move up and take a QB of Bryce's size, while he's struggling this much... good luck attracting even a Rhule level of a HC to the job. We're stuck with Reich and Bryce for at least 2, maybe 3 years.

We were sold on his super brain and his ability to feel the pressure and adjust accordingly. He constantly looks scared in the pocket, bad awareness, keeps turning away from the rush and moving backwards, and takes sacks he shouldn't be. I wouldn't be as concerned if those were just happening to any old rookie QB, but it's in direct opposition to what we were told he does best. Combine that with his lack of size/strength and it's doubly concerning, especially as he's just too small to be taking those sacks due to his own decision making. Sure, he did some good things today, but his mistakes are too glaring to ignore when they are mistakes of the things he was suppose to do at a level never seen before by a prospect, or that's what we were told by all the "experts" out there.

This is nothing like 2010 because we had our own pick in the next draft, this is 100x more depressing