tukafan21

206 yards passing gets nominated for this now? What are we even doing here?!?!

100% and I don't think anyone could argue that there has been a bigger supporter/fan of his than myself, so I'm not trying to talk down what he's done this year. But it's why I also have personally not brought up where he ranks in receiving yardage the last 2-4 weeks like a lot of people (and the team) has been doing. As while I know it's "true" and a cool thing to talk about, I always knew this bye was coming and his slim lead over the guys behind him will cause him to "tumble" down those rankings coming out of our bye. Even finishing 15th in the league in receiving yards as a rookie would be a MASSIVE accomplishment, particularly when his QB only has 3 games all year passing over 200 yards.

I obviously love the guy, but this is just a tad disingenuous due to not having our bye yet, even if a true statement at the moment. He'll likely end up being somewhere in the 15ish range going into our next game, I was looking last night and think there are like 7 or 8 players who are less than 45 yards behind him right now and another handful 100 or less.

My point was neither QB is a Mahomes or Allen type who can just carry a crap team to wins and while the 49ers have mostly won during his time there because they have such a complete roster, he's still far more critical to the 49ers success than Bryce is to ours, another team that is winning because of the roster, not the QB. He might not be THE reason they win games, but they certainly wouldn't be as good without him or have as high of a ceiling. He allows Shannahan to call the game he wants to call and Purdy adapts around it, he doesn't need to adapt his gameplan around what Purdy isn't able to do like Canales has to do with Bryce. The 49ers win less games the last few years without Purdy. I don't think we win less games without Bryce, but I think we win/lose different games. He's made a handful of clutch late game throws that a lot of back end starting QB's won't do. But he's also played so poorly in other games where most other back end starters would have gotten us a win.

There are different versions of "winning with him" though. The 49ers were winning with Purdy, not because of him. But just because they weren't winning BECAUSE of him, doesn't mean they would win with another QB either. He still brought a unique something that makes him a perfect fit with Shannahan and a well built out offense. We're winning with Bryce, and like Purdy, we're not winning because of him. But we're also not winning in ways that other QB's wouldn't be able to win just as many games as Bryce has. The difference is that I think we'd be winning and losing different games with another QB. Bryce does have a clutch factor to him, I've admitted as much, but it just doesn't come out all that often, and even when it does, it's not the same clutch factor as the actual elite QBs. So we might not have won some of those late drive heroics when he's done it the handful of times, but I think we'd have won some of the others where he clearly cost us wins with his poor play. If this was year 1 or 2, I wouldn't be saying it's time to move on, but it's year 3 and he still has way too many issues, many of which just won't ever be fixed for him (namely his arm).

The defender on the ball side of the WR with no safety help is the equivalent to a practice throw with no defender in terms of the throw itself, which is what I was saying. That is a throw where the QB is supposed to just loft it for the WR to run under for the catch, as long as the QB doesn't choke and way short the ball, the DB has no bearing on that throw, just like a practice throw with no DB at all. And the same goes for the T-Mac throw as well, no safety help with the defender on the ball side of T-Mac. All he had to do was feather the ball over the top for T-Mac to run under. And I'm not bashing the throws, he made a 100% perfect throw for the routes and where the WRs and DBs were on those plays. But making even a perfect throw doesn't mean he was "slinging dots downfield", it means he made a 20 yard lofted pass with the proper touch for the WR to run under it, something any NFL QB should be able to make. He gets full credit for making an accurate throw in the clutch, I've said that numerous times today. But superlatives like "slinging dots downfield" is just crazy nonsense for what the throws themselves actually were.

Except he's only gotten better because those first two years had him on a path to be a bigger bust than Jamarcus Russell, he's still one of the worst starting QB's in the league this year even if he has improved each year. Improvement that still has you as one of the worst at whatever you're doing doesn't necessarily mean you should be given longer to prove yourself. How many teams right now would swap QB situations with us? I think no more than 7, and quite honestly as few as possibly only 2, if any at all. Jets, Browns, Saints, Raiders, Falcons, Jags, and Cardinals are really the only teams that I think would even entertain a swap. And of them, the Jets, Browns, and Raiders might all prefer to just stand pat and see how their high draft slots might play out while the Falcons still might prefer to see what happens with Penix instead. Then the Jags and Cardinals (fan bases at least) are so fed up with their QB play given the contracts, that they might make the swap just to get out of those contracts.

I didn't say I thought throwing it was a bad decision, I said I thought not running those 3-5 yard routes to pick up the 1st down wasn't a great call. Yes the play worked out, but I didn't love the play call, it's like when a bad shooter is taking a 3 and you're yelling "no no no" as they're going up and then they make it so it worked out. That's still gambling on them to make the play and I take no issue with that. But I just went and watched the play again, we had T-Mac and XL running downfield crossing routes, Coker went in motion behind the LOS and then moved up a yard or two after the snap but not even past the LOS, Sanders chipped the DE and then ran a drag route right long the LOS. The play worked out, but I don't really like that particular play call and route tree with the game on the line on a 4th and 2. If you want to send one route downfield as an option that's fine, but there were only 2 realistic target options with that route tree and they were both 15-20 yards downfield. This is just before Bryce is going to throw it. You have 2 players off screen downfield, one player who ran a route that never had a chance to get open and didn't even get to the 1st down line, another player just at the line to gain but late in the route because of a chip (and the worst pass catcher of the 4). Do you really think that was a "good play call" in that situation? I very much do not think so, I think it was a terrible call that just happened to turn out well for us. Which is great that it worked out, but it's one of a whole lot of examples from both this week and the whole season as to why I'm not a Canales fan. Had we not converted the play, the discussion wouldn't be about Bryce making a bad throw as much as a terrible play call in the situation, same goes for the Coker play.

I do not think it's at all possible for him to play well enough to earn that contract this offseason. He could play lights out the rest of the season and we win the division and I still don't think he'd have earned it. That would have earned the 5th year being picked up no question (something I don't think he's earned as of now), but not a big extension. He's 2.5 years into his career and still only has a handful of good to great games, even a real strong finish to this season where he's been very up and down until now, isn't worthy of a $40+ million contract. Actually play lights out the rest of the year and I admit he earned the 5th year being picked up, but short of him being the reason for an actual SB run this year, there's nothing he can do to make me say he's earned an extension. He'd need to prove it for a full season next year to say he's earned that.

I'm not so sure the extra week for Canales to make adjustments and prepare is a good thing for us. We're at our best when he keeps things simple, it's when he tries to get too cute with things that everything goes to hell. I even was calling it out in the game thread today, I thought Canales called a terrible game at critical times, but the players made great plays to bail him out. I thought the Coker TD was a blind squirrel finding a nut, calling a one step drop and throw 20 yards downfield on 4th and short was so dumb. But more than that it was all the 3rd down runs up the middle that got stuffed, but our RB's made great plays to bounce around and find ways to get the 1st down. It just always feels like Canales is trying to outsmart the other team but isn't smart enough to do it. Even the T-Mac TD the more I think about it didn't seem like a great call, it was 4th and 2 and it was mostly a bunch of downfield routes. Why weren't we running the 3-4 yard routes needed to get the 1st down and move the chains on such a critical play?

It's also just like the Eagles and Chiefs last year where we almost beat the elite teams, that they spend the week looking at the game as a free win and aren't fully locked in themselves. You combine that with us playing loose and it's what leads to these games being close that could go either way at the end. So yes, credit to us for finishing those games of this year unlike last year, but I'm still not remotely sold on Canales or Bryce deserving to be back next year.

I'll also put it this way, his best throw of the night and the closest one to "slinging a dot" wasn't either of the TD throws, it was the final 1st down throw to Coker to seal the game. But again, I wouldn't call that throw "slinging a dot" either, that was just a great clutch throw to which he gets 100% credit for making. It would be like a RB breaking two arm tackles by CB's in a game and then afterwards saying that RB was trucking guys all game long. No, there is no definition of "trucking guys" but everyone knows it's not slipping out of a couple arm tackles, it's where you're running guys over and knocking them down.

I get it, but it's just like "dropping dimes" doesn't have a definition either but is saying the same thing. They're like what the Supreme Court said about Porn, "you know it when you see it" And I think you have to be watching with some crazy ridiculous Bryce goggles to think he was "slinging dots downfield" as the OP said. I'm not taking anything away from Bryce for making the necessary throw in those situations and got two TDs on two 4th down plays. But they weren't "sligning dots downfield" and they weren't "dropping dimes", they were pretty basic throws for any NFL QB, not even starting QB, just any QB. They were 15-20 yard touch throws for the WR to run under it, with no safety over the top of them or need to let them get down in bounds. They were in essence practice throws with no DB covering them, just in a high pressure game situation. 100% perfect throws for what was needed, which in itself is a credit to Bryce as he's struggled with that on easy throws in the past. And hell, this literally might have been his best game of his career all things considered. But "slinging dots downfield" is just an absurd statement to say after today, sorry. To reach a phrase like that, you need to be firing balls into tight windows downfield and/or tight coverage. Not throwing a lofted touch pass 20 yards with no fear of a DB making a play on it and just needing to let the WR run under it. Credit for executing under the pressure of the situation, but the throws themselves were as standard as they come at this level (or even college).

Bryce had his 3rd most passing yards in a game this season today. Bryce threw for 206 yards today. That is all.

Yes, young teams need to learn how to win close games. But an overwhelming number of wins (or losses) in 1 score games is usually more about just better luck than anything else. It's why those teams with such a drastic W-L record in 1 score games are usually widely predicted by experts to have the opposite happen in the following season, and it goes for both wins or losses (see the Vikings and Chiefs this year for example).

Honest question, how many games in his career has he not even had the opportunity to do this? If we're down 1 point entering the 4th quarter and we score a TD on the first play of the quarter and then never give up the lead, that counts as a GWD for this stat. The Falcons shutout this year obviously is one, but outside of that, have we ever entered the 4th quarter with a lead and held it until the game was over? I'd love to know how many chances Peyton and Allen even had compared to Bryce at the same time frame.

Doesn't Trust Bryce Dan?

THIS times a million. We can want to see us win games while also having objective opinions about Bryce and what he can or can't be long term. The problem is we're seeing the things that show us what he can't be long term, while we're also winning games, which makes for a very weird feeling. We're not upset that we're winning games, but we're concerned that we're winning games in spite of Bryce and that it will lead to him being kept around and only delaying our eventual re-set at QB (and HC) even further down the line and that frustrates us.

Exactly, and it's why I was saying before the season and all season long so far, that I don't care about our W-L record this year, never did. This year was all about showing actual growth and consistency on the field, not a handful of great plays that make people gloss over all the bad and wrongly make them think he's some stud, which unfortunately is exactly what is happening. I wanted Bryce to either step up and unquestionably prove he's a long term high end solution at QB or completely implode and prove he must move on from him this offseason. Unfortunately he's done the exact opposite and done just enough to make a large number of fans think he's proven to be the guy, despite actually showing more proof that he's not the guy and we win in spite of him, not because of him. This season is setting us up for a rough next couple of years when we pick up or extend Bryce, keep Canales around, but we still don't turn into a true contender in the next few years and then still have to start over again, instead of just getting started on the re-set this offseason or going into next year as a true contender.

Eh, he's catching them napping because they know he can't make those throws when they properly defend it. That doesn't seem sustainable for long term success, nor is it a recipe for being able to make those throws when the other team knows you have to make them. It basically only works in a game where you're able to run the ball at will, if you aren't doing it, the defense doesn't need to worry about overloading the box thinking Bryce can't make a throw on them.

Oh I totally get what you're saying, and maybe I'm wrong, but it's just really felt like that all year long to me. When we have 3rd and 5 and we have a pass play, one of 3 things seems to happen. 1. Bryce stares T-Mac down and throws it to him no matter what. 2. Bryce takes the snap and immediately throws a quick pass to the opposite side of the field T-Mac is lined up on. 3. Bryce goes through 2 or 3 progressions before throwing, all to the opposite side T-Mac lined up on and then throws that way too. I can't ever remember seeing a team with such a clear cut #1 WR who runs theirs obvious 3rd down passing situations like this. They usually pepper that player with those targets, or if not, he's still the first read in case he's going to be open and they throw it that way if he is, if not they then progress through to the other guys. That's why I think they're dictating to Bryce on most pass plays if T-Mac is an option on it. It's like the coaches are trying to out-smart the other team's DC by saying "they think we're looking at T-Mac here, so I'm not even going to allow Bryce to look at him and make them waste defensive attention on him while I'm always having Bryce look elsewhere."

Nobody? T-Mac was always the pick, because, duh.

Yes and no, and that's what I go back to what I was saying in the game thread today about him "locking in on T-Mac at times" I don't think it was a wrong or late read, because I don't think it was a read play, I think the play was called to throw that pass to T-Mac and there was no other option. It's like they tell Bryce one of two things on 90% of pass plays. 1. This is a non T-Mac play, don't even look his way, he's just out there for the defense to give him attention. 2. This is a T-Mac pass play, you're throwing to him and nobody else so don't bother going through your progressions. It's why I don't think Bryce has an issue of locking onto him when he shouldn't be, I think it's 100% Canales telling him when he is or isn't throwing to T-Mac and now allowing Bryce to make opposing decisions on those plays based on what he sees.

Nobody is bashing the throws, but trying to say the throws were something other than what they were and using it as the proof that he should be our long term solution is what many of us view as unbearable. Even if those were the two greatest throws in the history of the NFL, 2 throws a game, or even worse, 2 throws every few weeks, is not a sustainable way to build a long term successful team. We're not bashing Bryce to bash Bryce, we point out legitimate concerns we objectively see with our own eyes and project how they might affect our/his future.

There's no question he has a clutch gene to him, but he also as an equally as large, if not larger, "fug up gene" and in the end, that's going to cost us more games than the other wins us.