tukafan21

LOL, finally something we can 100% agree on. I almost quoted it and said, "so you've only seen less than 5 dart throws in your life?"

Fair point, but then again, we're getting into semantics and then where maybe everyone views things differently. If you're factoring in situation, I'd call it a "play" and not a "throw", and you can't deny, I've said numerous times in this thread that I was giving him full credit for making the throw in that situation. Personally, I view a "play" and a "throw" as totally separate things. A play takes everything into consideration, a throw is literally just about the throw itself and the physical skill required to make it.

Alabama just seems like the easy answer to choose for any team these days. After that, I'd guess ND is on the list just since we seem to have all their TE's in school history on the roster right now. Probably also South Carolina Then the last I actually feel like I remember seeing the Panthers tweet out a picture of players all from one school on our roster right now and thinking "man that's a random school to have so many players from" Was it Ole Miss?

That's still semantics then as to what you'd call this specific pass. My point was THIS is the type of pass that deserves superlatives to be used to describe it, whatever you want to call said superlative is sure, personal opinion. But that's my generic stance in this thread, the pass needs to be special to be called "slinging dots downfield" or whatever else you want to call it. Those two TD passes were certainly good passes, I'm not trying to say they were bad. But in reality, they were pretty standard throws for an NFL QB to be able to make (and honestly, pretty standard for most college QB's as well), hence why I can't agree with calling it dot, dart, dime, or whatever else you want to use.

Sorry this is 4 yards instead of 3, but I think that's still the "same thing" in this instance... you wouldn't call this pass a dot, dart, or anything else like that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_no5YnIrAb4 4 yard pass he had to get around a DL's helmet, over another defenders arm, out of reach of the DB, and still allow the receiver to make the catch. THAT pass was a dot/dart/dime, and if you disagree with that, then sure, we'll never see eye to eye on this one.

I think it's more situation specific than throw specific. A "dot", "dart", "dime", whatever you want to call it is all the same to me. It could be a 3 yard pass or a 30 yard pass, but it's more about fitting it in a tight window, getting it just over or just under a defender's reach, putting it in the perfect place for a WR to make a back shoulder toe tap catch on the sideline, etc. But in general, if we're talking about the type of passes for those 2 TD's, a touch pass where the WR is running past the DB and no safety help over the top, that needs to be a 40, if not 50 yards downfield for me to ever call a throw like that a "dot", "dart", "dime", etc. Throwing that pass 20 yards is basically just practice routes against air. They get credit for making the play in the pressure situation of a game, but I just could never justify calling a pass like that one of those terms, even if it was in the final minute of the SB to win the game. I'll also say that Bryce has made many of these throws in his career, I've always said his biggest strength is placement of touch passes. I just wouldn't have ever classified those two TD's this week as such.

I'd be very interested in seeing someone point me to a post saying any Panthers fans are unhappy with winning? We're happy the team is winning, but we're still unhappy with Bryce's play ON THE WHOLE. Yes, we recognize he's had a handful of good games, but even in them, he's still not making the type of plays/throws that high level QB's make, at least not on a consistent basis, one or two of those throws every few weeks does not make him a high level QB. Especially when every single one of those "high level throws" he's ever had are touch passes, as he's physically unable to properly drive the ball downfield into small windows, which for me, has and will always be my biggest issue with Bryce. Many of us are also able to look at what we see in front of us on the field and extrapolate that out to the future, and we don't see Bryce's play as a way for sustainable success. If he was anyone else other than our own #1 overall draft pick, say if he was a mid rounder now in his 3rd season here or if he was a FA we picked up at some point, the same fans bowing down to him right now would be calling for him to be replaced and saying he was holding back the team.

No, it's that there are a lot of us who think we're winning in spite of Bryce and that he is not, and can not, succeed at a high level in this league. The reason we're becoming more vocal the last month or so is because we see the writing on the wall, and that the team's success in spite of him is going to get his 5th year extension picked up and brought as our starter despite his actual play not being worthy of either. But I KNOW there are many Panthers fans who want to see Bryce succeed so badly that they are completely blind to the glaringly obvious issues he has and have wet dreams over mediocre games. I'm sorry, but I'm just so sick of people making comments like this. It's so asinine to think the anti Bryce crowd is willing to spend as much time as they do watching the games, following the team, talking on here or other places online, spend our money on team gear, etc, but because we don't think a player is good enough to be our long term QB and give specific and legitimate reasons why, that we want to see the Panthers tank. It's just such nonsense I will fully give him credit that he's improved in certain areas, particularly turnovers. But small improvements in some areas don't make up for his severe limitations and issues in other critical aspects. Saying these things doesn't mean we want the Panthers to fail, it just means we have objective opinions and aren't afraid to voice them, even if unpopular with a segment of our fan base. He is 23rd in QB Rating, there are only 3 QB's in the league with at least 10 starts who have less passing yards per game (not to mention he's 29th in the league in YPG overall). But some fans here think he's playing at some elite level and has proven he deserves to be our long term solution.

Because I was responding directly to someone pointing out how Maye is an MVP contender without throwing for 300 yards this season. That particular post had nothing to do with this weekly award, it was solely pointing out the craziness of that statement. I also don't think that statement means what you think it does. The "meaningful community support" I'm pretty sure is just a reference to it being a fan voted thing, as it's not like they talk about what these guys do in their communities when they're nominated for it and a factor in why they were nominated.

I don't think he's worthy of being nominated for the award this week, even with those very broken down stats. He had a great statistical game, I'm not saying he didn't, I just see how it was a Top 6 statistical performance this week. Brown's 10 receptions for 132 Yards and 2 TDs is so much better than anything Bryce put out there statistically today. It also means you're giving more credit to the "3 TDs of 30+ yards" than Mahomes throwing for 25% more yards and an extra TD, which is something else I'd disagree on, if you need to break down how long a TD pass was to give reasoning as to why lesser stats were actually better than someone else's, then I think you're hurting your own argument. And yes, I know I've been a very vocal anti Bryce guy, but this has NOTHING to do with that. I just view this as an award that is purely statistically based, and if anything, could (or maybe should) be done blind and only looking at box score output without knowing players or game outcomes. And in that view, I don't see how Bryce had a game worthy of being nominated for the award this week, that there were at least 6 better purely statistical performances, that's all.

Again, as I've noted in my other posts in this thread, we're not talking about the actual MVP award, we're talking about an award who's purpose is to award great statistical performances. And beyond that, you used a terrible example to try and support Bryce here. No, he doesn't have a 300 yard game, but he's also currently leading the league in passing yards (yes, he'll fall a couple spots while on by this week, but he's still currently 4th in the league in YPG), while Bryce is currently 19th. Bryce just threw for 206 yards, his 3rd most yards in a game this year. Drake has only thrown for less than 206 yards one time all year. Against us, in a game they won by 29 points and he went 14/17 for 203 with 2 TDs and another rushing TD on top. Drake also only has 3 games this season having thrown less than 259 yards. Bryce has 5 career games over 259 yards passing.

But we're not talking about someone's role or importance to a team, that's an entirely different conversation. In general, when you're just talking about building a roster or how a team looks, or anything along those lines, then I 100% agree with you. But this is for the Air and Ground Player of the Week. To me, I've always interpreted that as who had the best passing/rushing/recieving performances of the week, completely separate and irrelevant to a team's success/failure in that week. I wouldn't take the same issue with it if someone said he should be nominated for Offensive Player of the Week, that would be an award where the things you're talking about should be factored in. I just feel this is not that type of weekly award where role or team outcome has any factor in it, and it's who had the best statistical output that week.

1 million percent agree. But this isn't "football", it's the "air and ground player of the week" I think you should ONLY be looking at stats for something like that, and maybe that's just a personal way of interpreting this award.

hahaha, love it I was actually just talking to someone yesterday about what his season would be like if he had fallen to the Cowboys instead. They then don't trade for Pickens and he falls into that role with them and maybe is making a run for the best rookie season for a WR ever. But I'll still take him on our Panthers over him having a historic season for someone else, LOL

First of all, just because we won the game, doesn't mean he "out dueled" the MVP. Played better? Sure, I'll give you that since Stafford had the TO's, but our running game and defense won this game, Bryce didn't "out duel" Stafford. Our running game and defense made it a game, Bryce made 2 TD throws, but I wouldn't say 2 passes equates to "out dueling" in any way. This is supposed to be (at least the way I've always viewed it) as a vote for who had the best statistical performances for the week. So why does 206 yards and 3 TDs beat out say, Mahomes' 261 and 4 TDs? How does AJ Brown's 10 rec, 132 yds, 2 TDs get left off the list? I think Jameson (7, 144, 1), Rice (8, 92, 2) and Wicks (6, 94, 2) also might be clear omissions I'd put in there over Bryce too. I'm not bashing Bryce's performance, I just struggle to see how 206 yards gets a nomination for the "air and ground player of the week". If this was just "MVP of the week" then I'd say there is a stronger argument, and maybe it's on me for just how I interpret what this award is supposed to mean.

206 yards passing gets nominated for this now? What are we even doing here?!?!

100% and I don't think anyone could argue that there has been a bigger supporter/fan of his than myself, so I'm not trying to talk down what he's done this year. But it's why I also have personally not brought up where he ranks in receiving yardage the last 2-4 weeks like a lot of people (and the team) has been doing. As while I know it's "true" and a cool thing to talk about, I always knew this bye was coming and his slim lead over the guys behind him will cause him to "tumble" down those rankings coming out of our bye. Even finishing 15th in the league in receiving yards as a rookie would be a MASSIVE accomplishment, particularly when his QB only has 3 games all year passing over 200 yards.

I obviously love the guy, but this is just a tad disingenuous due to not having our bye yet, even if a true statement at the moment. He'll likely end up being somewhere in the 15ish range going into our next game, I was looking last night and think there are like 7 or 8 players who are less than 45 yards behind him right now and another handful 100 or less.

My point was neither QB is a Mahomes or Allen type who can just carry a crap team to wins and while the 49ers have mostly won during his time there because they have such a complete roster, he's still far more critical to the 49ers success than Bryce is to ours, another team that is winning because of the roster, not the QB. He might not be THE reason they win games, but they certainly wouldn't be as good without him or have as high of a ceiling. He allows Shannahan to call the game he wants to call and Purdy adapts around it, he doesn't need to adapt his gameplan around what Purdy isn't able to do like Canales has to do with Bryce. The 49ers win less games the last few years without Purdy. I don't think we win less games without Bryce, but I think we win/lose different games. He's made a handful of clutch late game throws that a lot of back end starting QB's won't do. But he's also played so poorly in other games where most other back end starters would have gotten us a win.

There are different versions of "winning with him" though. The 49ers were winning with Purdy, not because of him. But just because they weren't winning BECAUSE of him, doesn't mean they would win with another QB either. He still brought a unique something that makes him a perfect fit with Shannahan and a well built out offense. We're winning with Bryce, and like Purdy, we're not winning because of him. But we're also not winning in ways that other QB's wouldn't be able to win just as many games as Bryce has. The difference is that I think we'd be winning and losing different games with another QB. Bryce does have a clutch factor to him, I've admitted as much, but it just doesn't come out all that often, and even when it does, it's not the same clutch factor as the actual elite QBs. So we might not have won some of those late drive heroics when he's done it the handful of times, but I think we'd have won some of the others where he clearly cost us wins with his poor play. If this was year 1 or 2, I wouldn't be saying it's time to move on, but it's year 3 and he still has way too many issues, many of which just won't ever be fixed for him (namely his arm).

The defender on the ball side of the WR with no safety help is the equivalent to a practice throw with no defender in terms of the throw itself, which is what I was saying. That is a throw where the QB is supposed to just loft it for the WR to run under for the catch, as long as the QB doesn't choke and way short the ball, the DB has no bearing on that throw, just like a practice throw with no DB at all. And the same goes for the T-Mac throw as well, no safety help with the defender on the ball side of T-Mac. All he had to do was feather the ball over the top for T-Mac to run under. And I'm not bashing the throws, he made a 100% perfect throw for the routes and where the WRs and DBs were on those plays. But making even a perfect throw doesn't mean he was "slinging dots downfield", it means he made a 20 yard lofted pass with the proper touch for the WR to run under it, something any NFL QB should be able to make. He gets full credit for making an accurate throw in the clutch, I've said that numerous times today. But superlatives like "slinging dots downfield" is just crazy nonsense for what the throws themselves actually were.

Except he's only gotten better because those first two years had him on a path to be a bigger bust than Jamarcus Russell, he's still one of the worst starting QB's in the league this year even if he has improved each year. Improvement that still has you as one of the worst at whatever you're doing doesn't necessarily mean you should be given longer to prove yourself. How many teams right now would swap QB situations with us? I think no more than 7, and quite honestly as few as possibly only 2, if any at all. Jets, Browns, Saints, Raiders, Falcons, Jags, and Cardinals are really the only teams that I think would even entertain a swap. And of them, the Jets, Browns, and Raiders might all prefer to just stand pat and see how their high draft slots might play out while the Falcons still might prefer to see what happens with Penix instead. Then the Jags and Cardinals (fan bases at least) are so fed up with their QB play given the contracts, that they might make the swap just to get out of those contracts.

I didn't say I thought throwing it was a bad decision, I said I thought not running those 3-5 yard routes to pick up the 1st down wasn't a great call. Yes the play worked out, but I didn't love the play call, it's like when a bad shooter is taking a 3 and you're yelling "no no no" as they're going up and then they make it so it worked out. That's still gambling on them to make the play and I take no issue with that. But I just went and watched the play again, we had T-Mac and XL running downfield crossing routes, Coker went in motion behind the LOS and then moved up a yard or two after the snap but not even past the LOS, Sanders chipped the DE and then ran a drag route right long the LOS. The play worked out, but I don't really like that particular play call and route tree with the game on the line on a 4th and 2. If you want to send one route downfield as an option that's fine, but there were only 2 realistic target options with that route tree and they were both 15-20 yards downfield. This is just before Bryce is going to throw it. You have 2 players off screen downfield, one player who ran a route that never had a chance to get open and didn't even get to the 1st down line, another player just at the line to gain but late in the route because of a chip (and the worst pass catcher of the 4). Do you really think that was a "good play call" in that situation? I very much do not think so, I think it was a terrible call that just happened to turn out well for us. Which is great that it worked out, but it's one of a whole lot of examples from both this week and the whole season as to why I'm not a Canales fan. Had we not converted the play, the discussion wouldn't be about Bryce making a bad throw as much as a terrible play call in the situation, same goes for the Coker play.

I do not think it's at all possible for him to play well enough to earn that contract this offseason. He could play lights out the rest of the season and we win the division and I still don't think he'd have earned it. That would have earned the 5th year being picked up no question (something I don't think he's earned as of now), but not a big extension. He's 2.5 years into his career and still only has a handful of good to great games, even a real strong finish to this season where he's been very up and down until now, isn't worthy of a $40+ million contract. Actually play lights out the rest of the year and I admit he earned the 5th year being picked up, but short of him being the reason for an actual SB run this year, there's nothing he can do to make me say he's earned an extension. He'd need to prove it for a full season next year to say he's earned that.

I'm not so sure the extra week for Canales to make adjustments and prepare is a good thing for us. We're at our best when he keeps things simple, it's when he tries to get too cute with things that everything goes to hell. I even was calling it out in the game thread today, I thought Canales called a terrible game at critical times, but the players made great plays to bail him out. I thought the Coker TD was a blind squirrel finding a nut, calling a one step drop and throw 20 yards downfield on 4th and short was so dumb. But more than that it was all the 3rd down runs up the middle that got stuffed, but our RB's made great plays to bounce around and find ways to get the 1st down. It just always feels like Canales is trying to outsmart the other team but isn't smart enough to do it. Even the T-Mac TD the more I think about it didn't seem like a great call, it was 4th and 2 and it was mostly a bunch of downfield routes. Why weren't we running the 3-4 yard routes needed to get the 1st down and move the chains on such a critical play?