tukafan21

So........ Bryce Young but a better NFL QB skillset?

oh really? Then yea, this is him, no doubt in my mind about it, just the things he's said and how he's reacted to people saying things about Hunter, it's exactly like Cam used to do it, to a T

Any team that looks at him being a better CB than WR, at his size (he's only 185 lbs), and the wear and tear he's already had, and thinks making him a WR is his best chance at having a long healthy career, would only be hurting themselves. I don't think any team would ever consider making him a full time WR only. Why would you play someone at their lesser position when their size makes them more susceptible to injury at that position than their other one which they're already better at? Even if the NFL made him choose one position to be listed at for the combine because he has to be in only one group for going through all the non position specific stuff, he still chose to be a CB, because he knows that's his better side of the ball.

I haven't seen him around in a while, but that account linked there also isn't the one he used the last year or so, there is I think an extra "a" in that one, you can see it says he hasn't been online in almost a year there, which obviously, the person we're talking about has been.

Here's what I think the T-Mac vs Hunter (as a WR) really breaks down to............... They are polar opposites in just about every way imaginable. Hunter is a smaller uber athlete who is good because of his raw physical freak nature. T-Mac is a large human being who is good because of his insane fundamental talent. Hunter put up insane stats because of the offense around him, T-Mac put up insane stats in spite of the offense around him. Hunter has a chance to be great because he's a rare type of physical talent but needs to be taught the intricacies of the position. T-Mac has a chance to be great because he already does the things a WR needs to do well (mainly route running and his vice grip hands), but needs to improve in some of the physical areas, such as short area foot speed. If neither improves upon their weaknesses, it will hurt Hunter more because in the NFL, everyone is a freak athlete and if you can't do the little things at an elite level, you lose your edge. If T-Mac doesn't improve on his short area foot speed (i.e. improve his get off at the snap and his burst out of cuts in his routes for separation), he can still become a true elite possession and downfield jump ball WR, basically exactly who Mike Evans is. If Hunter never played CB and solely focused on playing WR, then sure, maybe he improves on those things over the past 3 years and he's a better prospect because of it, the truth is we'll never know. But the fact remains is that he hasn't, it doesn't matter if it's because he spends so much time playing CB, it's just where he is as a player right now. And since he's still just a better prospect as a CB, it's a fools errand to say he has Jefferson potential as he's never going to be a full time WR, he'll be either part time at both or a full time CB.

I thought this an hour or so myself, he talks very much like Cam did all season about Hunter and has the same reactions and type of responses he had all season long anytime someone said anything about Hunter not being the greatest football player since the dawn of time.

That's what I was going to say too, he'd have been right there in contention with Odunze as the 3rd WR off the board. And you're correct, people are already forgetting Thomas Jr the prospect due to the season he had, just like people forget that Justin Jefferson was the 5th WR taken and the 22nd pick, not some surefire can't miss possible GOAT type of player that he's already turned into.

This is LITERALLY the reason we're where we are at as a franchise, because we keep drafting guys with off the charts RAS scores but are raw and not as actually skilled on the field and don't end up panning out. Again, I'm not saying that's going to be the case with Hunter, but it's what you're describing here. There is this misconception amongst fans that anything can be just taught to physically talented players once they get to the NFL, but that is woefully flawed, if not just downright wrong. It's actually very difficult to teach things to players once they reach the NFL, but what good coaching can do is take the players who already can do it, and make them better at it. You can improve a players foot speed and ability to get into and out of cuts on their routes to create separation. But you can't as easily teach the player to be a precise route runner who has the instincts needed to do it at a high level. Which is why I put more weight behind the things T-Mac does well than Hunter, because T-Mac is an elite player more due to his skills where Hunter is one more due to his athleticism. If you can't see the difference between those things, it's a you problem, but it's very real and accurate. But what you can't argue is that it's exactly what has messed the Panthers up so much over the years by leaning into the high RAS score athletes who are raw as actual players and expecting us to be able to coach them up.

He has better hands, significantly larger catch radius (like absurdly so), and better at 50/50 balls for a start, while he also already runs a more full route tree that is already at an NFL level. And before you say Hunter does those things well, I'm not saying he doesn't, but T-Mac is just better at them, just like Hunter is better at some things as well, such as pure speed/quickness and his ability to separate (and yes, separation and route running are two separate things, you can be a poor route runner but elite separator due to quick twitch ability). T-Mac has 3 legitimate weaknesses, 2 of which are easily improved upon in the NFL with proper coaching, with the 3rd just being due to his size and is a trade off for what you get from his size. His get off at the snap and separation are two things that with coaching and just growing as a player, will get better. Particularly because he's already an elite route runner, he just needs to improve his first couple steps after cutting to get that extra half step of separation. His raw top end speed will always be what it is, it's not elite like Hunter, but it's MORE than fast enough to be successful in the NFL, particularly due to all his other positives. As I've noted before, he was clocked at 20.8 MPH (I think this was the number, not going back to find it right now though) during his first 2 seasons in college, which would have been the 8th fastest a player was clocked in an NFL game this past season. You're taking these responses in this thread as if people are saying Hunter is a bum who couldn't cut it in the NFL as a WR if his life depended on it. But we're really just saying he's a better CB prospect than WR, but even as a WR he's probably the 2nd or 3rd best prospect in the draft and still a 1st round pick. We're also pointing out that you just can't ignore the wear and tear that his already thin frame has been put through by playing both ways for 3 years and the very legitimate concern about how he'll hold up long term in the NFL because of it, even if he only plays one side of the ball moving forward.

AND THERE IT IS Thank you, because you posted this as I was typing up my previous response and you did EXACTLY what I said the Hunter defenders do. You're taking people having very legitimate concerns about how part of his game will translate to the NFL and making it into someone talking bad about him as a college player. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING Go back and read every post I made about him this year, I consistently said he's a true generational collegiate talent, one of the rarest of them all. But that doesn't mean jack squat when it comes to evaluating what kind of player he'll be in the NFL, or even just what position is best for him. If you want to think differently, that's totally fair, but pointing to things like stats and awards is just making you look like you don't know what you're talking about, because they don't mean anything. There are so many instances of players putting up elite stats in college but couldn't sniff being even a serviceable NFL player. Which again, isn't what myself or others are saying about Hunter, but it's just the proof that looking at stats/awards is a fools errand when projecting NFL potential and impact.

Some recent Biletnikoff winners Jalin Hyatt, James Washington, Dede Westbrook, Corey Coleman And yes, Chase, Addison, Devonta Smith, Harrison Jr have also won it recently too, but you keep pointing to things that have literally zero bearing on what they could be at the NFL level. College stats and awards are completely meaningless when it comes to translating their game to the NFL, because they are two very different sports in the end. It's why so many Heisman winners end up not being anything in the NFL, because you can put up elite stats in college even if you're not going to be a good NFL player, as they're different games. I'm not saying Hunter will be a bust, and I'm not saying he can't be a good WR or even a great one, but you're putting way too much weight behind the wrong things when trying to project Hunter out as an NFL player. Saying a player will be better on one side of the ball than the other, or saying another player will be better than him isn't saying he's a crap prospect, which is something all the Hunter defenders can't see past. They see any negative thought about him as an attack on who he is as an athlete or what he did in college, but it's not, it's projecting his skillset (and legitimate concerns) to the NFL.

WHAT?!?!?!?! Honestly for the life of me, I can't figure out what you're saying here. How are you saying their supporting casts cancel each other out and Hunter STILL had the better season? The supporting cast is LITERALLY the reason that he had the better season statistically. If you put T-Mac on Colorado in place of Hunter, I'm 100% convinced he'd have had better stats than Hunter did, as he already had almost the same number of catches, and more yards, with a significantly worse QB and with zero other offensive weapons to take any attention away from him like Hunter had. If you think Hunter having 7 more TDs is more because of Hunter vs T-Mac and not because Hunter's QB had literally DOUBLE the number of TD's this year than T-Mac's QB, then I have some Arizona oceanfront property to sell you.

Yes, that's actually part of the argument against Hunter's prospects, particularly because he's still insisting on being a 2 way player. He's still putting personal glory over his own personal ceiling as a prospect, because yea, if he focused on either side of the ball, he'd be a better player because of it, while also extending his career (as playing 2 way is a sure fire way to shorten it). Too many people here think the "hating" on Hunter is just hating him, no, we recognize that he is a true generational college player, but we have concerns about how his game translates to the NFL as well as serious concerns about the beating his body has taken from playing 2 ways for the last 3 years.

He spent the entire season complaining on podcasts that he wasn't the Heisman favorite. He then flew entirely across the country on his bye week to show up to College Gameday in person to again, campaign for himself for Heisman. His coach posted a video of him "stealing" shoes from Deion's personal locker room because he thought it was funny. But do you really think that would fly with any other player or coach in the nation? If you don't think these things are red flags of a potential diva when his NFL HC isn't a surrogate father to him, then again, you're sticking your head in the sand.

You do realize that raw stats don't make someone a better or worse player, right? To begin with, the last time I checked, 1,319 is more yards than 1,258, so T-Mac had more yards (but I'll forgive you as a typo there and say you meant catches lol), but that's before even factoring in that Hunter did his in 13 games vs 12 for T-Mac because Arizona didn't make a bowl game. It's also completely ignoring the team around each player. If you think Hunter having the 8th place finisher in the Heisman voting at QB isn't going to result in helping his top WRs stats, then you're sticking your head in the sand to purposefully not see it. Hunter's QB had 353 completions for 4,134 yards and 37 TDs vs T-Mac's QB who had 260 completions for 2,958 yards and 18 TDs. But sure, let's rank NFL prospects by their stats and say the guy with more catches and TDs is the better prospect. So on that note, I now change my mind, T-Mac is no longer the best WR in the draft, it's Nick Nash who had 104 rec, 1,382 yards, and 16 TDs, all numbers better than Hunter's... because that's how this is done, right? As I've said before, if someone wants to like a player better than someone else that's totally fair, but come with real reasons, talk about their play, but to talk about things like stats as your reasoning, when you ignore the obvious and massive flaws in using those stats in that way, just makes you look dumb.

If you don't think taking twice the amount of hits than other players do doesn't wear your body down faster than your biological age, then you're fooling yourself.

I honestly don’t think he’s the best WR or CB in the draft, I’d take T-Mac and Johnson over him at each position respectively. If you want to argue him being the best player because he can play both ways, that’s more fair, but as I’ve said a million times, if he tries to play both sides in the NFL it will both limit his potential on each side and will lead to a shorter career as he’s going to get hurt given his thin frame.

How is it not a 2:1? He hasn’t been a part time player on either side, he’s been full time, so he’s played twice the number of snaps as any other 3 year player. If anything you could make the argument that it’s closer to 3:1 than anything because he’s taken the physical impact of playing both positions, but without the break other players get when their side of the ball is off the field. So he plays double the amount but without the in game recovery time every other player gets.

You do realize that post of mine had nothing to do with T-Mac at all, right? I only mentioned him because it's the same general thing I've been saying in his threads, but my feelings regarding the combine testing carries across all players. Especially as the 40 yard dash is even more irrelevant to pass rushers, the only time they're going to be running full speed in a straight line is if they're trying to track a player downfield during a big play, something which you'd love your pass rushers to do, but not what you're drafting them for their ability to do. As I've said previously, the combine made more sense decades ago when there weren't 100 cameras for every college game and thus teams have more than enough game footage to evaluate and compare prospects, as it then gave them ways to compare players they have limited and/or poor quality film of. You say it's about reinforcing opinions, but it's not, because if their timings don't show you that, it then means you change it. If T-Mac comes out and runs a say 4.47, what are you going to say about it as that's clearly not what your opinion is of him right now? And it works the other way around too, what if someone looks like they play super fast, but then their timings (in both the 40 and other drills) are slower than you'd expect? That doesn't reinforce opinions of what you see on the field, if anything it just muddies up the water even more. Some players are just gamers and no matter what they do, they're always going to play faster than they test or practice, just as some players will always play slower than they test or practice. Which is why I don't care if a player runs faster or slower, or even exactly the same, as expected, I just put zero weight behind it, I care about what I see on the field and yea, it annoys me when I see people say, like they have in this thread, that their final opinion on a player and/or draft position will come down to combine testing.

And this is exactly what I've been railing about in the T-Mac threads lately. For the life of me, I can't understand how a player's 40 time changes anyones opinion of a player when you have years of tape on them. Why does how fast a player runs 40 yards down the field change your views on them when that position will never do that in a game? I utterly despise what the combine has become in how people use it to drastically change their opinions on players. To me, the only thing the combine is good for is for teams to easily be able to meet with and interview dozens upon dozens of players in a matter of days, not a single thing done on the field means jack squat to me.

Hunter, no question about it. I think he's going to be a massive diva in this league, especially when he doesn't get his way of being a full time 2 way player. I also think he's more hype than reality because people can't separate his collegiate impact with his potential NFL impact. He's a true generational collegiate talent, but I don't see that translating to the NFL myself. But the bigger reason that people just seem to not want to talk about or just flat out ignore, he's going to be a rookie next year, but in the body of someone starting their 4th season in the league already. He takes twice the amount of wear and tear on his body every year due to playing both ways, so it's essentially like he's already played 6 seasons worth of football past high school. He's going to breakdown much faster than other players, even if he stays on one side of the ball moving forward as he already has more wear and tear on him.

Oh I've long been prepared for it as I know the odds of any team drafting one specific player is very low. And a small part of me wants him to be drafted before us anyways, just as that would be easier to swallow than us possibly passing on him. But both of those things aside, prepare yourself to be wrong on him, as that one I'm certain you will be.

Spoken like someone who A. doesn't know enough about T-Mac's game and B. someone who is afraid of our own past of taking the big physical projects in the late 1st or 2nd round and them not panning out, as T-Mac isn't a late 1st raw project type of prospect. But it's okay, either people are going to be thrilled in a few years when he's earning All Pro's here in Carolina, or you're all going to realize how right I was on him when he's doing it for someone else.

I said this in another thread recently, and I know people will scoff at me even bringing up another Arizona player given my T-Mac feelings. But if we're going to give a rookie a shot, take a look at Arizona's Tyler Loop. I'll be 100% honest in that I have no idea how to properly evaluate a kicker's NFL potential, but what I can say is that the kid has a MONSTER leg. Hit a 62 yarder this year and the number of long kicks he'd put OVER the net was insane, think he put a 48 yarder over it this past season if I remember correctly.

Garrett has been a DE his whole life and was the #2 overall high school prospect as one, Parsons was a MLB until 3 years ago and is still learning the position. Despite that, Parsons still had 10 more sacks in his first 4 years than Garrett had, albeit in 12 more games. If Garrett’s numbers have been historical, what have Parsons’ been when he is ahead of Garrett’s pace while still learning the position? My whole point was you wouldn’t be making the trade for one game or even one season, Parsons is the one you’d want moving forward, and I don’t think he’s as far behind in current impact as you think.