Icege

Huddle gonna Huddle. I genuinely don't understand why the debate between Stroud/Young gets as heated as it does. We knew going into the offseason that there was no "perfect" QB candidate. We knew that Stroud had a great game against Georgia, but what he did while under pressure in that game was the polar opposite of what he's looked like. We knew that Young hadn't suffered any substantial injuries to date, but that doesn't mean he'll be as lucky in the NFL when it's a matter of when as opposed to if you'll get hurt. Like... here we are, in a situation as fans, where we're going to get a franchise QB with either of those guys and yet we still have people making accounts so that they can defend a prospect's honor or (arguably worse) posters going out of their way to demonize folks for supporting a particular QB. I'm glad that it keeps what little ad revenue there is going, but yeesh... are folks that bored?

This thread got weird.

Written by Joe Person + Bears' beat writers Kevin Fishbain and Adam Jahns. Those with memberships to The Athletic can click here to read. Lot of interesting caveats and insights into the process, along with some "What-ifs?" Excerpts below... ******************************* Ryan Poles was driving everyone nuts. The Bears general manager couldn’t sit still in his office at Halas Hall. It was Friday, March 10, and some of the team’s top decision-makers — assistant GM Ian Cunningham, senior vice president/general counsel Cliff Stein and director of football administration Matt Feinstein — had gathered with Poles at the team’s home base in Lake Forest, Ill. “I was pacing back and forth, just all over the place,” Poles said. “I just wanted to get it done.” “It” would be the trade that shook up the NFL Draft, the trade that would alter the futures of the two organizations involved — and maybe those that weren’t. In Charlotte, GM Scott Fitterer was in his office with head coach Frank Reich, assistant GM Dan Morgan, VP of football administration Samir Suleiman and president Kristi Coleman, waiting to see if the Panthers secured the No. 1 pick for the first time since 2011 — the year they drafted an Auburn quarterback named Cam Newton. When the trade was finalized — just before happy hour in the East — Carolina had put itself in position to find a franchise quarterback. But the celebration was brief: The Panthers had to call their best offensive player and tell him he was being dealt to Chicago. ******************************* In early October, it appeared the Panthers might get the No. 1 pick without needing to trade for it. They were 1-4 when they fired coach Matt Rhule after a 22-point home loss to San Francisco and fell to 1-5 the following week at Los Angeles in Steve Wilks’ first game as interim coach. When the Panthers traded running back Christian McCaffrey to the 49ers on Oct. 21, there was talk about whether they were tanking for the top pick. But players rallied around Wilks, who leaned on his defense and a physical rushing attack led by D’Onta Foreman. That approach kept the Panthers competitive, and they traveled to Tampa Bay in Week 17 with first place in the NFC South on the line. As Carolina started winning, Fitterer understood he would need to get creative to position the Panthers for one of the top quarterback prospects in the 2023 draft. “Once you know you’re not gonna be in the top five, it’s, ‘OK, how we gonna get there?'” he said. “But let’s worry about that later. Let’s win now.” After losing to the Bucs, the Panthers beat the Saints in their regular-season finale to cap a 7-10 season and secure the No. 9 pick. “That’s when it gets more expensive,” Fitterer said. “What makes sense? Do you bridge it another year with another vet and keep building? But at some point, we had to fix it.” ******************************* Poles needed help — or maybe just some advice from a friend in town. So he called Blackhawks general manager Kyle Davidson. “Really, hockey is the only one where you’re trading a combination of picks and players,” Poles said. “So I just was curious.” He had plenty of questions about how the Blackhawks valued players against picks, how contracts and age played into the equation, etc. Davidson started laughing. “He’s like, ‘It’s a challenge,'” Poles recalled. Like the Blackhawks, Poles asked the Bears’ analytics team to work on “wins over expected,” an advanced measurement, to measure the potential impact of a trade acquisition. ******************************* Poles took the information with him to the scouting combine in Indianapolis. The Panthers were the first team to reach out. “They were the first ones to kind of kick it off,” he said, “which tells you a lot.” Poles worked out of the Hyatt in downtown Indianapolis, away from the bustle of the JW Marriott complex and where other Bears staff members stayed. He said he “slow-played” things at first, then heard from Fitterer, whom he knew well from their days on the road as scouts. The two GMs met in Poles’ suite as the combine got underway on Monday, Feb. 27. Fitterer said the initial meeting lasted about 20 minutes. He realized fairly quickly he wouldn’t be able to make the jump from 9 to 1 with picks alone. Poles would later ask about several Panthers players, three of whom best fit some of the Bears’ needs. Neither GM would confirm it, but according to league sources with knowledge of the talks who were granted anonymity to discuss the deal without repercussions, Poles was interested in pass rusher Brian Burns, defensive tackle Derrick Brown and receiver D.J. Moore, all former first-round picks. ******************************* The Panthers’ first offer did not include a player, but Fitterer and Poles kept talking in Indianapolis, including twice at Lucas Oil Stadium. With little headway on an agreement, Fitterer pulled the offer on Sunday, March 5, before flying back to Charlotte the following day. ******************************* A night after Fitterer’s first meeting with Poles, the team’s brass — including owners David and Nicole Tepper, Reich and quarterbacks coach Josh McCown — sat down with free-agent Derek Carr at the Marriott in downtown Indianapolis. Reich came away from the meeting impressed with the 32-year-old former Raiders quarterback. “Derek is an excellent leader. He’s an excellent passer,” Reich told reporters the next day. “He checks a lot of boxes that you’re looking for.” But after renting a quarterback in each of Rhule’s three seasons, the Panthers were ready to go the draft-and-develop route, which Reich and Fitterer both had called the preferred approach. The Panthers had top-10 picks in three consecutive drafts in which they didn’t take a quarterback. They watched the Chargers draft Justin Herbert one spot ahead of them at No. 6 in 2020 and didn’t view Fields and Mac Jones or Kenny Pickett as worthy of a top-10 selection in 2021 or 2022, respectively. But Fitterer was more convicted about this year’s quarterback class and agreed to circle back with Poles in the days after the combine. Back in Charlotte, Fitterer continued to run through scenarios with Reich, Morgan and Suleiman, who handles player negotiations and salary-cap management. ******************************* There was more for Fitterer to sort through, too. He had discussions with Arizona and Seattle about the No. 3 and No. 5 picks, respectively. Fitterer spent two decades in the Seahawks’ front office and remains close with GM John Schneider, but the talks for the fifth pick never intensified. The Panthers weren’t alone in wanting to jump to No. 1, and they sensed there would be competition. Indeed, Poles said a “wave” of teams checked in after Carolina. The Bears had calls with QB-needy teams throughout the draft — not only in the top 10, where three were willing to discuss potential compensation. The Raiders had conversations about what it would take to get to the top pick from No. 7. The Colts (including Poles’ former colleague in Kansas City, Chris Ballard) were also involved but only to a certain point; the timing just wasn’t right for Indianapolis and some other clubs. What intrigued Poles most, though, was the possibility of moving down one spot to Houston’s pick at No. 2 and then down to No. 9. For the Bears, it would be two big moves wrapped into a bigger one. The Panthers, who were comfortable with two of the top four quarterbacks, were open to it. But Poles’ dream scenario hinged on the Texans moving up. ******************************* “There were certain players that we never really wanted to trade,” Fitterer said. “It’s so hard to replace a Derrick Brown or Brian Burns, a pass rusher (and) an interior, dominant young player on a (first) contract. D.J., we didn’t want to move either. But it’s a little bit easier to replace a receiver than it is a pass rusher or a three-tech.” The inclusion of D.J. Moore in the trade helped Carolina keep a future first-round pick. (Bob Donnan / USA Today) The framework of the deal was mostly in place, but there was a hangup: The Bears wanted the Panthers’ second-round pick (No. 39), which Fitterer was determined to keep. Instead, the Panthers countered with their other second-round pick (No. 61), which they’d acquired in the McCaffrey trade. “We didn’t want to have that big gap in there,” Fitterer said. “We thought the sweet spot in this class is somewhere between 20 and 45, just really good value in there. At 61, that’s a heck of a fall, and you’re gonna watch a lot of good players (get taken).” Fitterer proposed a sweetener to close it out — the Panthers’ second-round pick in 2025 — to go along with 9 and 61 this year, next year’s first and Moore. Tepper, the hedge fund manager worth $18.5 billion, signed off on the additional second. “He thought that was a pretty inexpensive move to get up there to get your future quarterback to change the direction of your franchise,” Fitterer said. “Dave’s very good at managing value, showing some restraint yet being aggressive. This is the world he lives in.” ******************************* With Tepper participating remotely via conference call, the Panthers were fired up after finishing the deal. But first, they had to get in touch with Moore and his agent, Drew Rosenhaus. “It was an exciting moment for everyone. There were a lot of high-fives,” Suleiman said. “But it was — I hate to say short-lived, but we had to immediately call D.J. and let him know so he wasn’t learning (by) reading about it. We wanted him to hear it from us first.” Afterward, Fitterer and Morgan would go to dinner with their wives. But all of the Panthers’ decision-makers unwound in Fitterer’s office first, talking about the trade for a half-hour or so. “Wow,” Fitterer said to the group, “Did we just trade up for the first pick?”

I felt like he played poorly vs. Northwestern, Michigan, and Maryland. I was especially concerned vs. Northwestern because that's where he used his legs a lot more and there was a lot to be desired on those scrambles.

Probably one of the best years to be picking #2 and still needing a QB tbh. While Bryce Young is clearly the better player, CJ Stroud is the better prospect. Both have question marks that will prevent them from being franchise QBs should they not go addressed. However, we've also seen them addressed somewhat. Stroud's issue is that he does not handle pressure well. At all. Despite being an above average athlete, he doesn't exactly make people miss in the pocket. Once he's forced out of the pocket, his mechanics and accuracy fall apart. If not for that Georgia game, those questions would still be asked (and let's be honest: they are being asked by people that know football). Young's issue is that his size leads to assumptions about how healthy he'll be, if he'll be able to see over NFL linemen, etc. Meanwhile, he has multiple seasons of throwing behind Bama's OL (which is full of massive human beings) and his only time getting hurt was putting a hand down to brace himself during a tackle. That happens to even the strongest of RBs... are we really going to focus on that as proof that he's too little? All in all though, Carolina and Houston are going to have the least question marks surrounding their guys should it go Young/Stroud in whatever order. Sucks to be a Colts fan right now. Having to burn the #4 pick on Levis or Richardson would hurt really, really bad if they don't pan out. Will be interesting to see if they make a move for Lamar.

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It will be interesting seeing how many people give credit where credit is due to Fitterer instead of trying to tie the albatross that was Rhule around his neck. When Rhule signed it was made clear that he had total control (right down to what was posted on social media by the marketing department). Still, that didn't stop a lot of fans from trying to put that at Fitt's feet as well. I'm very interested to see how much Fitterer adapts to this current coaching staff. We'll get to see what the consistencies are and be able to better determine what Fitterer values while also getting a cross-sectional look into what Reich is looking for as well. Going to be a fun few seasons!

It's hard not to be excited with the draft just a month out. The team upgraded the coaching staff nearly across the board, retained the OL (and arguably upgraded it by replacing Elflein with McCray), upgraded TE, lost Moore but gained Thielen + Chark at WR, and has the core parts of an ascending defense in place. Big bodies are being added to the defensive line and some back end aid has been brought in (Von Bell). The defense could use additional depth at LB, CB, and on the edge, but that can be addressed after the #1 pick is addresses the open role of franchise QB. Nice to feel full of hope rather than having to find hope like the last few seasons.

The tallest WRs being 6'5", the shortest WR being 5'7", and the league average being 6' makes a 6'2" body one of the bigger ones out there. Add a pinch of 4.4 speed and you got a WR that Reich will be eager to get involved so long as he can learn his responsibilities for when the ball isn't coming his way.

Just 20min and hearing how Reich likes having big bodied WRs makes me wonder how TMJ is going to do in this new offense.

Saw Scott Bolander's post on the Panthers subreddit sharing an hour-plus long deep dive on Reich's offense and lost the thread + video, so I'm amped that 4MR got with him to dive in further. Loved hearing that Reich will never embarass a player. After the last two HCs, can't help but wonder how grateful guys will be to not have to worry about their coach dragging them whenever they speak to the press.

There's an argument to be made that better decisions have been happening with Nicole in the room instead of Rhule...

I wanna pick Chaos so bad... but if the team is selecting #1 (or #2 for that matter), I'd prefer it be either Young or Stroud. Both have their positives, and these coaches know more about NFL QBs then I can ever hope to dream of, so I'm going to trust in the process this go around.

Eager to see how this signing plays out. At the very least, TMJ and the other young WRs are going to be getting route running clinics from Thielen. Current red zone weapons: Sanders, TMJ, Hurst, Thielen, Tremble? Not bad.

IF a trade down were to happen, I can't imagine the move being made anytime soon. They've got plenty of time to continue vetting QB1 and while they might find themselves interested in more than one of them they might also fall head over heels for a particular prospect.

I'm guessing that Frank and the gang are looking at that UGA game as what he can be coached up to be. When the biggest knock on Stroud has been how he wilts under pressure, he went out against one of the best defenses in the country (with NFL talent littered across it) and put on his best performance yet. Following that up by putting on a show at the combine only solidified it further. Can't coach 5'10" up to 6'3"

Thank you for the insight + clarification!

Why would they trade it to their division rival tho?

Sounds about right. Do you imagine that they'll trade with Houston and select Richardson if the compensation is enticing enough? I can't see them dropping down to #4. Feels like it's Stroud and that's that.

So... you're looking to prove that you're right? The thread title says to help you understand, but based on this reply and other's that you have made in this thread I'm led to believe that you're just looking to argue.

Are you trying to understand the move, be convinced about it being beneficial, looking to vent, or just looking to prove that you're right?

Damn, the TE group just got leaps and bounds better. Wouldn't mind the team still looking at taking a TE in the draft with higher upside than running it back with Ian Thomas.

Really happy for Baker. Things didn't go well here, but he seemed to grow a lot as a professional during his struggles. Hope things work out for him in TB, so long as it means losing to the Panthers

Oh my damn All the offense needs now is a deep threat WR, Foreman or Williams to tote the rock, and the QB that the team selects at #1 overall aaaaahhhhhhh

Ngl was fretting a little bit over finding a capable mentor that isn't a coach for the rookie QB, but Dalton is an excellent choice to help the #1 overall pick learn how to be a pro.