Ivory Panther

Just now, ForJimmy said:

Let's make it easy.  Show me where any analyst/scout/coach is concerned with Stroud's size.  Our own HC stated there was a concern with Young's.  Why do you think that is?  

Not saying there are no concerns or shouldn’t be. I’m saying there should also be concerns abt CJ when ppl use Tua as an example of “small QBs” getting hurt because CJ is smaller than Tua.

I’m just pointing out the double standard.

2 minutes ago, travisura said:

You're squabbling over three pounds now? Ridiculous.

I’m not. Just factually correcting his claim…

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The point isn't to directly compare him to Tua. We aren't deciding between Young and Tua. We're directly comparing Young and Stroud. Stroud is considerably larger.

Yes, until ppl start using Tua as a example of smaller QB in the NFL getting hurt as the reason why Bryce would.

6 minutes ago, travisura said:

 

Lol, we all saw CJ combine measurements & he was 214 pounds. He was also reportedly 213 pounds at his pro day. 

Tua was listed at 217 at his combine.

Not gonna use random Google screenshot when combine numbers are officially. Hell I can screenshot Bryce Young height listed at 6 feet, but we all know that’s not true…

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

Because people are more concerned about Young because he's considerably smaller still than Stroud. 

I get the “more” concern argument. But if ur solution is a guy smaller than Tua, it doesn’t make sense…

that’s why that argument feels bogus to me when it comes to CJ vs Bryce. 
 

They are both small anyway, if u compare them to Tua.

So if size is a real concerned which should prevent a pick, AR & Levis should be the only consideration logically. 

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I know a lot of people are making this argument but it's just a weird argument to make when I saw Tua getting ragdolled and brain damaged this year with my own two eyes.

Valid point.
here is what I don’t understand however.

Tua is bigger than CJ (weight wise), so why is it that ppl who are concerned abt Tua’s injuries don’t seem concerned abt CJ’s injury risk? 

10 minutes ago, TheMaulClaw said:

I still think it's Stroud. We moved up to number 1 right after CJ's combine performance. Our QB coach loves his tape.  Had we moved up after Young's pro day I would be less sure.

Lol

7 minutes ago, Martin said:

I think the vast majority supports the team. The team, not a specific draft pick. You can be disappointed with the pick and still support the team. Not sure why you are working so hard at this narrative that people are not being honest, it’s a bit odd.

That was a long empty whole lot of nothing u wrote. Lol

I said some ppl wouldn’t support our QB the way some didn’t support Cam in my thread.
Ppl like u were upset at me for saying it. Now that someone say they wouldn’t, u wanna change the debate to “supporting the team”. That was never the debate. Keep moving if u have trouble with comprehension buddy…

49 minutes ago, ickmule said:

If they do I’m out until he proves successful in the NFL, which I doubt will happen.  

I respect your position because at least you are being honest with how u feel, where many don’t have the balls to do. They only trash Bryce every second they get then follow with, “I’ll be ok with both QBs” lmao. 

When I made a thread about ppl possibly not supporting the QB we take if it’s not “their QB”, some ppl here were upset at me, as if it was a crazy notion. But here we are...

15 minutes ago, backINblack28 said:

well in my eyes, the biggest Stroud questions were that he had a supporting cast that at least last year from a WR perspective, Young did not have anything close to. For me, the Iowa and Michigan games from Stroud offered moments where I wowed at the TV--several times in each game, and sat there thinking "even though his receivers run the routes, catch the balls he throws, get open, and extend plays with their talent, he is still making eye popping throws, processing insanely quick," and for me his process/timing from looking off/making decision to throw to the moment when the ball hits the WR hands is one of the fastest processes I've seen in college. 

We can make tons of comparisons to what Stroud could be in the league based on his strengths but all of the guys that come up (Dak, Carr, Goff, Burrow, etc) I did not see that specific strength from in college (didn't watch Carr at Fresno St tbh but saw plenty of the others and Burrow is mostly an exception because his one year was just that--exceptional). 

So--after the Iowa/Michigan tapes, THEN that made the UGA performance in the playoffs with the stakes against the best defense available to face provide the final test/answer to my question of 'is CJ elevating talent around him or are they elevating him" to which I think the answer can be both but that CJ is also doing insanely impressive things regardless of the talent surrounding him. 

I think Young does the same--I've never questioned that about him in high school or college.  I do have questions about it translating as well to pro, but I think it's going to be exciting AF to find out, and I think the prospect of having a non-traditional QB is normally the more exciting prospect of rooting for and being right about---but that's the inherent risk too is that when/if it doesn't, we're sitting here staring a lot of "told you so" in the face. 

I'll add this too--in some respects with that it almost seems like Houston has the easier path here. They just take whoever is left between the two and if THEY are wrong--they don't have to answer to "why didn't you take the other guy?" At the same time--i've said it before. I like that we put our nuts on the table and did the thing and that I don't have to ask 'which retread QBs are available/can they play at league average for 8 games' anymore. I get a dude whose jersey I can wear while he runs out the tunnel for half a decade or a full one. I'm excited AF for that.

Very well said!

To me on Tangibles it's 50/50 (i'll even give Stroud a slight advantage due to bigger arm).

It's the intangible where I'm a bit uncomfortable with CJ but very Comfortable with Young.

for instance he lost twice to Michigan who had somewhat similar talent. Yes, it wasn't his fault in either game, but he didn't push his team to victory either.

The UGA game, he played a hell of a first half. Marvin Harrison gets injured in the 3rd. CJ enters the 4th QTR with a 13points lead and loses the game.

The offense scored 3pts the final QTR. Yes, he did lose his top weapon, but he still had Egbuka, Flemings & the TE with a 13pts cushion. He put them in position to win in the end, but watching that game entering the 4th, it felt like the game was over. UGA was on the rope & somehow came back to win it. 

Ppl compare CJ's situation with to Burrow as far as having a bunch of weapons & the fact that it didn't stop Burrow from succeeding in the NFL. That's a very fair point! 

But Burrow put up record breaking numbers when he had his weapons. He won a championship & a Heisman with his weapons.

Now, I'll concede that Intangibles are very hard to evaluates, especially as a fan who doesn't get the behind the scene of how the sauce is made. So I could be 100% wrong about CJ's intangibles & the guy is actually clutch in big moment more often than not.

So with that, for me, once players have certain tools, a good team situation, which I believe both CJ & Bryce will have in Carolina, Intangibles is what separates their careers.

Intangible is the difference between Burrow & Goff for instance. They have comparable arm talent, accuracy, size etc...But they are on 2 different levels when it comes to playing the position even though they both had good teams with weapons. 

8 minutes ago, backINblack28 said:

I mean--the combine going well could have also just made it more obvious that if they liked Young and then they saw good things out of Stroud it could still mean that they preferred / might still prefer Young but that the depth of QB at 1 was something they then felt stronger about.

I barely lean Stroud and would be happy either way. I trust that whoever they pick showed our staff enough to separate themselves from whoever they don't pick--for me personally, right now that separator is the injury/height questions coupled with the fact that it does seem like sometimes it seems laborious for Young to make some throws--but I trust that if we draft him there's something they are seeing there that eases those concerns.  When we beat the Bucs at home, I loved that we beat Tom Brady but I just remembered thinking well, this probably cost us Bryce Young.  Maybe not... But then after UGA/OSU game/watching all three of AR/BY/CJ I started to slightly lean Stroud. Mostly just excited going forward for whoever it is.

Yea, as fans, we don't get to talk to these players, so we have no idea what's behind the ears or work ethic etc...

So we have to trust the staff to make the right choice.

I think it's interesting that many ppl like yourself had Bryce as QB1 the entire year until the UGA.

watching that game, I was enamored with CJ as well. He played the game of his life and answered every questions. If you get that CJ for the rest of his career, obviously that is a homerun pick.

Can he do it again? I'm sure he can!

How often can he do it moving forward, I don't know...

So I just can't change my mind over one heck of a performance, knowing that athletes have great performances from time to time.

2 minutes ago, backINblack28 said:

I feel like this timeline doesn't detract from the point I made about us making a lot of these decisions after the combine.  This article talks about how Fitterer pulled an offer before the combine and then after, he decided to not only put it back on the table but add a superstar WR to it.  That he pulled it before the combine and was okay with adding to it and going thru with it after to me isn't nothing esp that it's juxtaposed with Bryce Young not throwing there.  Doesn't mean we're going to do something or not but it lines up with what Vegas and the consensus of mock drafts think.

If that's how you read into it, I feel you.

for me, it's pretty clear that it had nothing to do with any combine performance. Pulling the offer was part of the negotiation tactics.

if the combine performance was the trigger, the talks wouldn't have started before the performance IMO.

12 minutes ago, backINblack28 said:

Fair point--do you have the articles handy that refer to that how that timeline shook out?

It was in the athletic from April 3rd I believe. Below is an excerpt: 

Poles took the information with him to the scouting combine in Indianapolis. The Panthers were the first team to reach out.

“They were the first ones to kind of kick it off,” he said, “which tells you a lot.”

Poles worked out of the Hyatt in downtown Indianapolis, away from the bustle of the JW Marriott complex and where other Bears staff members stayed. He said he “slow-played” things at first, then heard from Fitterer, whom he knew well from their days on the road as scouts.

The two GMs met in Poles’ suite as the combine got underway on Monday, Feb. 27. Fitterer said the initial meeting lasted about 20 minutes. He realized fairly quickly he wouldn’t be able to make the jump from 9 to 1 with picks alone.

13 minutes ago, gmonjimbo said:

Just wanted to share some comments Fitterer noted about Young's arm strength. I think Young has an average NFL arm, CJ has good NFL , and Mahomes or Allen elite. For below average would be Tua and Teddy Bridgewater. 

“Thought he was very fluid, very poised,” Fitterer said. “Ball came out of his hand nice and easy — plenty of arm strength. I think, overall, he managed to do well.

“Saw a lot of good things out of him. Very in control, very poised. It’s just like you thought it would be. I know I heard comments around me, like, ‘Hey, his arm is better in person than I thought,’ [from] coaches that had only seen tape. That’s from other teams, but it’s always good to hear things like that.”

I agree with this.

Crazy that Tua & Teddy are on the same team. It's almost like McDaniel has a type. lol

31 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

This. He has a very average NFL arm. Honestly, probably below average if I'm being honest. In comparison, Mahomes has an elite NFL arm.

I get the comparison stylistically. My concern is does the style translate without the hose? That I'm not sure about. Burrow makes it work, but Burrow has a good arm too. Not Mahomes' arm, but he has a plus NFL arm and can throw that same ball from virtually any platform. I think there's a substantial gap in arm talent between Burrow and Young. I think Young is closer to *gulp* Teddy when it comes to pure arm talent. Can Mahomes' style work with Teddy Bridgewater's arm? That sounds like pick six city to me, but we're gonna find out one way or the other soon whether it's in Charlotte or Houston.

I think Bryce compensates the lack of elite arm with anticipation and ball placement in short & intermediate throws. when you throw ppl open, you don't always have to drive the ball in.

So, I think he will be fine. he has a bigger arm than Tua and he has been doing ok with Tyreek and Waddle this season.

I also wonder if Bryce's arm can get stronger.

I mean these kids are in their early 20s (except grandpa Hooker lol), so I'm thinking they will get stronger. It feels to me like Burrow's arm got a little stronger in the NFL.

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

People keep saying he's Mahomes-lite but there's a BIG difference in the arm strength.

I agree, Mahomes arm strength was actually 1 of the first things ppl raved about before even the play making ability.

aside from size (which is not a big deal to me), Bryce's arm strength is his biggest concern.

It's not bad (better than Tua IMO), but he definitely has many balls dying down toward the end on long passes. or they look a bit wobbly...

Do you think arm strength can drastically improve with more weight & muscles? 

2 hours ago, backINblack28 said:

I would support whoever they pick. I just find the timing strange if this is the case.  We were reportedly the most aggressive team at the combine, after which we made the trade.  That's when CJ Stroud was showcasing and when Bryce wasn't even throwing.  Not trying to say anything positive or negative about either guy, just the timing to me doesn't really match up with them saying 'let's go get Bryce' after we sat at the combine and were so impressed with something there that we wanted to trade--all while Bryce isn't doing anything

According to several reports (including Joe Person of the athletic), the deal started to be discussed Monday & continued throughout the week.CJ worked out on Saturday...

I understand the logic of, they traded because they saw CJ workout, but it doesn't appear to be the case since the intent to trade started at least 5 days before he even worked out. 

On top of it, Fitt & Reich both said the tape was more important than the workouts.

So I doubt that the workout was the reason for the trade, although without the insight from Joe Person of the athletic, it would be logical to think so.

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

Just because multiple people don't agree with you doesn't make them a clique.  The other Bryce Young fan on this thread is fine.  Seems logical and normal to me.  There are plenty of arguments to be made for either QB.  Maybe Young isn't the issue people are having with your posts.  Maybe it's just you?

PS "lmao" and "lol" you forgot roflmao!

So again, tell me why I'm the issue.

You are making dumb statement w/o substance. lol (since it seems to get under your skin so much) lmao

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Ivory comes twice as hard.  Dude is legit.  

Frank is going to one day, finally grow up and use 1 profile like most ppl here. lmao

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

"lmao" I already responded to your question.  Asking it over and over again won't change my answer magically.  However keep hijacking this thread to help prove my point.

lol, your answer was that it didn't bother you, which is a lie you tell yourself.

also, I don't mind "proving" your point. You & your little clique are so worried about validation, you are afraid to truly express how you feel.

Hence, you keep saying "I'll be happy with either" but bash anyone who talks about Bryce. lmao.

4 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

You can hijack them if you want.  I just don't think it makes you the victim you think you are.  

lmao. you keep wanting to paint me as a victim when you are the one avoiding simple questions.

You can ask a few here, if you come at me, I come twice as hard. 

No victim mentality in real life or cyber life buddy!

2 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Leave Ivory ALONE!

Frank just use 1 profile like everyone else. lmao

Just now, ForJimmy said:

We get it.  You are a victim and everyone attacks you for being a Young fan.  Why would you keep hanging around here if that were the case?  Just a bunch of "hardcore" CJ fans here apparently....

You are bringing victim talk to the situation. I'm no victim because again it is not that serious to me.

I'm still waiting for you to answer the questions. Why doesn't it bother you that I like Bryce if you are ok with carolina drafting him? 

Also I hang around because the blog talks about other things than Bryce. I'm a panthers fan after all.

11 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

It doesn't both me.  It's just suspicious so I just called it like I see it.  

It doesn't bother you but you said I hijacked threads with Bryce content & you are concerned.. 

so which is it?

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

If it's die hard to a point where you highjack every thread, have a bunch of random new people start posting with you, and make a thread about people cheering for the panthers to fail if they don't draft their choice of QB then yeah it gets concerning to say the least.  I wouldn't call it a "crime" though, it's just a message board after all...

I think you are a bit paranoid about the "new profiles". This is draft season & for the 1st time in more than a decade, Carolina is about to take a QB at 1. Of course more ppl want to talk about that. if you go on twitter, you can clearly see there has been more engagement since we trade up to 1.

I can't control who creates profiles and comments on my post. Maybe I was over excited when we traded up with the possibility to take Bryce & started different threads, to highlight Bryce. but that doesn't warrant the way you & a few others have been coming at me. 

I didn't realized the board was full of CJ hardcore who would see my liking for Bryce as annoying because you all kept saying "I like both and I'll be happy with either". So technically, you should have been fine with a hardcore Bryce fan as you like to refer to me. Especially if I wasn't dicing CJ.

But that is not you all have reacted. Any Bryce fan on this board is attacked for the most part by the same minority who claim to be "ok with either QB".