KSpan

Even if he never fully developed as a passer (relatively speaking for him, as he was better than many give him credit for) Cam dragged and willed those teams to wins every year. How many wins the total team had at the end of the year depended on the talent and coaching around him, and Cam did lose some games on his own, but in baseball terms his WAR on those teams was very high. That said, there is a chicken/egg thing with Rivera and how Cam was used. I do believe though that he maximized his unique running ability, to overreliance at times.

I'm just talking in the imminent season, but that is a fair point. Reich may be an average coach overal but if he and his staff help Young develop into a star then that's a huge long-term plus.

That's the point though - 2011 was nowhere near a rebuild. It was strikingly similar to this year, an entirely new staff, new schemes, and a new QB, with similar talent overall... hell, the 2013 offense had 9 of the same starters as 2011 and the defense had 4 (5 if Godfrey hadn't gotten hurt). It's the entire premise of the original post that the real improvements may take a year or two to appear just like in 2011.

? I'm not saying it's definitive, as I consider it a general push overall, but I'd take the 2011 staff overall. Just a personal feeling as Reich has not bene impressive as an HC IMO. Looking at pts scored, 3 of Reich's 4 years as OC his offenses were middle of the pack or worse, with 2017 Philly being top-tier. Evero did fine with what was in Denver but they were #3 in pts scored the year before so obviously something there. Rivera had a #13, #1, and #3 defense in Chicago and #2, #4, and #2 defense in San Diego. McD had #19 and #21 defense in Philly. Chud had a #8 and #30 offense in Cleveland. The overall years are closer than I recall but doesn't change my thought.

You realize that the 2011 team returned 14 starters from that 'disaster' 2010 team and that a couple more that started for the first time in 2011 were on that 2010 roster, right? I addressed that exact topic in another post and, taken across the board, this team and the 2011 team are pretty equal in terms of total talent (2011 more stars on offense, this team has peaks in Burns and maybe Horn but 2011 was without both Beason and TD) and the 2011 staff had way more overall coaching experience. 2010 was a product of abysmal QB play and lame duck coaching way worse than last year. The rest of that roster was solid, especially the defense.

'Best roster in years' is not a high bar to reach, unfortunately. Beats the alternative though.

Coaching is a push at best IMO, with less overall total years of experience in respective positions with this staff and Rivera and McD both being highly successful as coordinators (I give the nod to 2011). Carolina had a little more offensive talent in 2011 (Cam, Smith, Olsen, Shockey, Double Trouble, Gross/Wharton/Kalil), and this year's defense has more talent overall since both Beason and TD were out for the year. Really pretty equivalent overall.

The part I've always thought but some would consider a hot take: Reich is an average at best, Rivera-esque coach that was a safe, boring hire steeped in nostalgia. No real on-field hot take beyond that. It was the first week of preseason in the first year after complete turnover of staff, scheme changes, and picking up a rookie QB. Of course it was likely to suck.

As much as i hate the spirit of fast passes, they were worth every penny when we went. Hell, we ended up staying a night in the resort even though we had a condo elsewhere because it was still cheaper than buying the passes alone.

Sacks count as TFLs.

Because the massive amount of change has to be factored in. New QB or new coach/schemes? Fine. New QB, a rookie at that, AND new coach? That's a ton to settle in and it renders the prior year effectively moot.

Almost like a brand new 3-4 scheme with personnel built for years to play a 4-3 might struggle a bit... crazy.

Reich is not an upgrade from Willks - they're both average, Rivera-esque coaches that will go up on down in any given year. Reich's staff appears better than Rhule's/what Wilks had to work with. We'll see if that makes a difference.

This again? What an awful approach to the season

I feel like this is the physical manifestation of the 'it may take some time' reality that some folks so vehemently talked down on. There are fans that really set themselves up for big disappointment and it's not necessarily because things suck, because who knows how it will all come together, but it may simply take at least this season to fully turn things over. Hopefully things come back down to Earth a little bit and a broader definition of success can be realized.

Who could've predicted there would be a learning curve this season? Almost like it's a rookie QB, entirely new staff with an HC that is being viewed with rose-colored nostalgia, lots of new personnel, and just general overhaul to rid the Rhule stench... Lots of potential here but yeah, gonna take a bit of time.

This good and hasn't even played an NFL down yet... Truly amazing.

Entirely irrleevant, though it is important that the starters and backups look competent, coached, composed, and that they show improvement week by week. That said, I don't mind 'winning' the first quarter/first half and maybe through the third quarter if it's mostly guys who will make the 53 on the field.

Taye Biddle.

WE NEED ANSWERS!!! Sarcasm referencing the clowns that were screaming about Luke's 2015 concussion, in case it wasn't clear.

Duh. Poor coaching, questionable officiating, and ill-timed mistakes/failures (Tolbert fumble, Ginn letting the pick bounce off of his hands, the punt return nonsense, Cotchery not catching that bill cleanly in the first place) doomed the team.

And now you're saying that Denver's defense was schemed by Evero AND Fangio rather than the players... nice movement of the goalposts there. That would be a solid coincidence across 5 seasons and, if true, would put Evero a tier or two below Fangio and whomever he had at DC. Regarding personnel, your exact words were "There is no way you’re taking Denver’s personnel over ours. It’s not inaccurate", which is why I focused on the Denver players that were upgrades and why I would indeed take Denver's personnel over Carolina's. I specifically said that I'd take their guys potentially even over Brown and of course Burns is a better edge than anyone they had not named Von Miller. Also, while McCall is promising, in a vacuum of course I'd take Denver's proven DL performance over holdovers and castoffs like McCall and Tuttle. Also, looks like Surtain was voted the best corner in the NFL by NFL personnel, just like Simmons was voted the best safety by NFL personnel before. You're welcome to your opinion but it's not echoed by actual NFL minds, making the Horn/Surtian discussion a push at best. https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/patrick-surtain-broncos-voted-top-corner-espn-poll#:~:text=Over 80 NFL executives%2C coaches,1 cornerback. My brother also lives in Denver, we watch the Broncos/Panthers games and compare... You're not unique in that regard and are certainly welcome to your opinion, but it doesn't appear to mesh with the NFL reality.

I completely agree with your last paragraph, but have a tendency of counterpointing crazy takes such as Jeremy Chinn being better than Justin Simmons and Denver being talent-starved relative to Carolina. I'll add that it may take a year or two to really see the effects, as much of Carolina's defensive roster wasn't built with a 3-4 in mind. That's where I think Evero will earn his money this year, being able (or not) to coax it out of guys like McCall that are holdovers.

If coaching matters is your angle, Denver's defense dropped from 3rd in 2021, with an offense that scored fewer points than Carolina's did in 2022, to 14th in 2022 under Evero with many the same players. I'm not at all arguing that Evero is bad but it doesn't jive at all with that angle. Also, his argument wasn't that Carolina's defense would improve, which I do believe will happen, but rather that Denver's 2022 talent was markedly less than Carolina's 2023 talent and that Evero somehow got more from the same 'replaceable players' than the staff before him. That's just incorrect based on just a cursory review of the team beyond taking some talking head at their word.

What do their rookie years have to do with anything? Besides being irrelevant since Simmons came in behind 2 good safeties (but still started his 2nd year) and Chinn had immediate opportunity, Simmons was/is still an entirely different type of player than Chinn and is just objectively better than Chinn right now. This along with the fact that Denver's defense was 3rd in the league in pts against in 2021 with nearly all of the same 'replaceable players', the year before Evero arrived there, disproves your attempted points. Does it mean Carolina's players and/or Evero are bad? Not at all - Carolina has some talent and Evero did good work. But the angle that Denver's defense was nothing without Evero and that Carolina's current roster is much better is just inaccurate.