SCO96

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1969705-vince-lombardi-was-also-a-great-general-manager I pasted a link above just in case you wanted to read the entire 2014 article on Vince Lombardi as a coach and GM. I'm only going to post a portion of it here. It follows up on a good point you made in your post. "Lombardi inherited a team that went 1-10-1 in 1958. That team also had a lot of untapped talent then. On that squad were a number of players who would later be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Players like center Jim Ringo, offensive tackle Forrest Gregg, quarterback Bart Starr, halfback Paul Hornung, fullback Jim Taylor and middle linebacker Ray Nitschke. (Note: Jerry Kramer was on this team, but he didn't make the Hall of Fame until after it was written) Lombardi took that 1-10-1 team from 1958 and immediately brought a winning tradition to Green Bay. In 1959 the Packers went 7-5 under Lombardi. A year later they played in the NFL championship game against the Philadelphia Eagles. That would be the only postseason game Lombardi and his Packers ever lost. The excellence of those teams was helped a great deal by the players Lombardi had inherited when he joined the team. But he also added to that excellence by acquiring some great talent himself through the draft and trades, plus free agent and waiver acquisitions as general manager... ------- I know football was a different game back in the 1960's,, but I suggest reading the entire article. Lombardi did it all by himself with is rare these days. But, there isn't any reason why a good coach and good GM can't get on the same page an build a winner in Carolina. Lombardi took a one win squad to a title in his 3rd year...and 7 of the players on that 1-10-1 team are Hall of Famers. I'm not saying we have that type of talent here, but coaching makes a difference. I bet you none of those guys would be remembered today if not for Lombardi getting the absolute best out of them. Rhule can't seem to do that with his players and even seems to have difficulty properly evaluating personnel. I have no doubt that Belichik, Peyton, Reid, Harbaugh, Tomlin, or LaFleur, or McVey could have this team as solid wild card team, if not division winner, if they had taken over in 2020. I think they would have needed a 3rd or 4th season to compete for a SB title with all of the inherited holes. A couple of them could probably take the current squad and coach them to a 9-10 win seasons if they took over in 2022 and fielded the exact same squad.

No one said the Jags should have passed on Lawrence. Any team in need of a QB would have selected him if they had a #1 pick. His track record shows he was worthy of the selection. There have been classes that have produced several Hall of Fame worthy QB's in the top 10. If the talent is there, I'm all for grabbing the franchise QB. Still, even Trevor is going to look bad if he's surrounded by mediocre talent. What people are saying is that there may not be a QB good enough to take in the first round in THIS DRAFT. If Jimmy Clausen, Brady Quinn, Akili Smith, and Joey Harrington were the top 4 QB's in this draft, the Panther's would be crazy to take one of these guys with a top 10 pick. Why not? These guys are not talented enough to be FRANCHISE QB's. I really can't speak on Howell or Pickett because I haven't seen enough film on either one. But, there are guys who get paid to analyze the upcoming draft classes each year. When they say this is a weak QB class, I think we need to pause and hear them put. I think they're professional analysis carries more weight than yours or mine.

That's not always the case sir. There have been draft classes that have produced no successful starters in the 1st round. There have been drafts that haven't produced any solid starters at all. https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-draft-best-qb-class-since-2000-worst-let-s-rank-em-all-0ap3000001108141 https://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/18/nfl-draft-worst-quarterback-classes Take a look at the links above for the proof. Young QB's need help if they're going to a bad team. Trevor Lawrence was the highest ranked prospect in years...in the category of John Elway, Peyton Manning, and Andrew Luck. He threw 4 INT's yesterday and has struggled this year. Why? His team is terrible. No college in this year's draft will succeed in Carolina until the O-line is fixed.

I think Mr. Scott is implying that there probably isn't a QB worth taking in 5-10 area of the draft. We all know we need a QB to have a chance at competing for titles. But the last thing you want to do is draft out of desperation and end up with a Cade Mcknown, Akili Smith, Andre Ware, Josh Rosen, Christian Ponder, Jake Locklear, JaMarcus Russell, EJ Manual type of player which would set the team even further back in terms of winning. First round quarterbacks are far from a sure thing. You also have to factor in the state of the team that's drafting him. Most bad teams get high draft choices for one reason...they're bad teams. If you put a 21-23 year old on a team with bad coaching and a poor offensive line you're just setting him up for failure. The line needs to be built first. Last year was the year to do it. We passed on 5-6 Tackles and 3 interior lineman, including the best center in the draft, before we took a WR @ 58. We could have picked one of those guys and still got Brady in the 3rd round. If Rhule was set on playing him at Guard, so be it, just start him there from Day 1 and 40% of the line is upgraded with 2 choices. We didn't do it, and we have the same problem. If somehow we were able to get a couple top FA lineman to sign before the draft then I could see taking a QB in round one. But, I have to ask why would a top lineman want to play for this team considering the woeful state of the Panthers? We don't need castoffs from other teams so we're gonna have to do it thru the draft.

I've watched a lot of football in my life. I have NFL memories dating back to the 1970's. I have seem teams that were just plain bad wind up with high draft choices and use them on QBs. But, I didn't see them go out and lose on purpose. Most NFL franchises and player have too much pride for that. I can't recall a team that was clearly tanking at the end of a season to get a franchise QB; and then actually winning a title once they got him. I'd like for someone to give me an example.

I don't get this reasoning at all. The extra point was the right way to go. You needed 15 points to tie so you had to have two TDs an extra point , and a 2 pt conversion. Get the 7 points. Then if the defense makes a stop you have a chance to tie with a TD and 2pt conversion. You don't have to attempt an inside kick which statically you have very little chance of recovering. If you go for the 2pt conversion and miss, then you hope you recover an onside kick. Score a TD and an extra point (or 2 pt conversion) and then get the ball again to have one last shot. Instead of needing 2 TDs to win , you now need 2 Tds, an onside kick recovery, and a 3rd score to win. You may could try that at the start of the 4th quarter because you'd have 15 minutes. We had a lot less time than that. The team had struggled all day. I'm glad we had to get the extra point because we at least had a shot going down the home stretch.

Good point. Last year's team was frustrating because of the narrow losses, but at least the team was still compelling. With the exception of our 2nd losses to Tampa and New Orleans, all of our losses were by 10 points or less. This year's team just looks bad. The QB play has clearly diminished from last year. The O-line looks worse this season which I didn't think was possible. The bad offense is having a side effect of hurting the defense because they're on the field for too many snaps. Plus, it has to be hard on morale when you know the offense is usually non existent in the 2nd half and lacks firepower to be competitive with good teams. If someone told me at the start of the season that we'd be this bad on 2021 I would've told them that they were CRAZY.

I actually agree with you. Brady and Brown should be starting…or at least be getting more reps than they are currently getting? As you pointed out, they haven’t played enough to see what they can do. For all we know, answers to our Oline woes could already be on the roster. I think our rookie class is talented. My comment about them may have been phrased poorly. I was trying to say that based on their lack of playing time and misuse, their overall contributions have been minimal. Ask yourself this, based on what they’ve done this season, if none of them were on the team, would we be that much worse? Brady is playing out of position when he does play. And, if Rhule thinks he should be a guard, then start him and let’s see what he can do. I dont even know if Brown has seen then field. Tremble is a TE who has shown flashes, but he’s in an offense that doesn’t feature that position. He also a good blocker, but we never see him in the backfield as a lead blocker. Horn is hurt, but we already know he can play. He just needs to get healthy TMJ has been a non factor for weeks. Outside of Chiba, the rookie’s haven’t had a chance to showcase their talents. This is especially frustrating because they’re probably better than they guys in front of them…or at least as good. I would have looked at this as year 2 of a 3 year rebuild and had those guys playing a lot more to see what they are capable of doing on the field. By seasons end we’d know if we were set or in need of better players.

Mike Singletary is a Hall of Fame MLB who played his entire career with the Bears. He grew up wanting to play for his favorite team, the Dallas Cowboys. The Cowboys considered drafting him in 1981 but decided not to for one reason, Gil Brandt didn’t think he was tall enough.. Back in the day, Dallas built their teams based on their expectations of height, weight, and speed. The Cowboys wouldn’t draft a LB if he wasn’t 6 ft tall. Singeltary was 5ft 11 inches. Singletary lettered all four years at Baylor, a university in Texas. He was named All-America twice, and Southwest conference player of the year twice. His coach tried to convince Tom Landry to give him a shot but He and Brandt couldn’t get over the fact that he was 3/8 of an inch shorter than their ideal lb so they picked a guard named Howard Richards in the first round. Then in rounds 4-5 they picked 3 LBs in a row. I was a Cowboy fan back then. All four of those guys were off the team by 1986, and none of the linebacker ever became a starter. But hey, at least all 3 linebackers were 6ft tall. Analytics should help you make decisions like someone pointed out, but that shouldn’t be the deciding factor. You need to make your decision on one thing, CAN THIS DUDE PLAY FOOTBALL? They Cowboys lost back to back NFC title games in 1981 and 1982 to eventual SB winners San Francisco and Washington. The run defense collapsed late in both games. You have to wonder if things may have been a bit different if they’d have had Hall of Fame MLB in those games. We need to see if Christensen can play LT.

I definitely see your point of view. If you could convince me that a guy could come in and make this team immediately better with the current personnel I'd be all for terminating Rhule. Thing is, that would be hard to do without a solid QB on the roster. We also need to revamp the O-line. It's gonna be hard filling both of those holes with only 1 pick during the first two days of the 2022 draft. Free agency is an option to help us, but we can't assume that Carolina is going to be a desired destination for this year's class of free agents after the 2021 season. This would be a much more desirable job for a new coach was coming in with 2nd and 3rd round choices intact. A new coach would literally be starting out with an immediate disadvantage. He'd have to be able to maximize the players contracted talent under contract for 2022 ...AND...hit on practically every day 3 draft choices to put us in a competitive situation.

We all know there is a learning curve leaping from college to pros. I think too many Panther fans overestimated this team heading into 2021. I didn't expect us to make the playoffs this year. I was hoping for a 9-10 win season, setting the stage for a strong playoff run in 2022. However, I didn't think the team would play so poorly this season. Last year 8 of our 11 losses were by one score or less. We were soundly beaten 3 times last season (once to NO and twice by Tampa). Every other game was literally decided in the final minutes. This year we've had games where we couldn't score a point in the 2nd half. And, we got swept by the NFC EAST, a division that didn't have a team finish above .500 in 2020. And, arguably our worst defeat of the season was to the Giants, one of the weakest teams in the league. Our inability to score points in the 3rd quarter is mind blowing. Our drafts and personnel decisions are highly questionable. Not coming away with at least one bonafide starter for the OL this past draft is inexcusable. Brady may not be the answer at LT, but we really don't know because Rhule refuses to play him there despite picking him in the 3rd round.. Drafting WR TMJ in round 2 may pay off down the road, but he really hasn't contributed anything this season. Jaycee Horn is hurt so he gets a pass, but he only played 3 games. You can make an argument that none of our 2021 draftees have had a strong impact thru our first twelve games. You can't have that for a team undergoing a rebuild. Now, we don't have picks in the 2nd or 3rd round this year, so we only get to make selections on Day 1 and Day 3 of the 2022 draft. The CJ Henderson trade is a head scratcher. Even after Horn's injury we had DJ, Bouye, and Taylor. That was a trade we didn''t have to make. Plus, keeping TE Arnold probably would have helped our passing game. I don't care if Rhule is gone at season's end. But, I can see giving him one more year. plus it may be hard finding a guy who can come in and turn things around immediately with the lack of draft choices in 2022. If he does return he needs to be on the hot seat. The current team performance is unacceptable.

Let’s say this a possible strategy to get a 4th year. It could have worked if he and Fitterer hadn’t given away most of our 2022 draft capital. We have a #1, #4, and a #7 I think. If a top LT is available when we pick, I could see selecting him over a suspect/overhyped QB given our oline woes this season. If we still had all 7 draft choices I’d feel a lot better about our chances to significantly improve the team. After our first round pick, we don’t pick again until the last day of the draft. There’s no guarantee free agents are going to want to come here in 2022. If the guys we picked this year to make a huge improvement next year we could be looking at more of the same ineptitude.

I’m not as pessimistic as you about the current condition of our team, but….I wouldn’t shed any tears if the scenario you propose actually took place.

I’d be willing to give him a 3rd year if Brady was shown the door and replaced with a better OC and the offensive line receives a legitimate overhaul in the off-season. If these two obvious flaws are not addressed at the end of the year I doubt I’d watch one game from start to finish next season.

This game may have only been topped in terms sorry play by the fiasco up in NY when we got destroyed by a Giant team without several of their best offensive players. We at least scored a TD in this game. We only scored 3 against the Giants. I could take the losses better if we were more competitive. The defense has some flaws, but overall they’ve played well enough to keep us in most games. The offense is just putrid. The offensive line is terrible which results in poor QB play and an inconsistent running game. In terms of offense, there is nothing that this team does well.

Cam is a 10 year veteran. He’s a former league MVP. If he is that reliant on coaching to practice proper passing mechanics at this stage of his career, then the outlook for his NFL future looks bleak.

I think when it comes to the QB situation we can agree that the answer is not on the roster . PJ has a good arm, but he makes too many bad throws when under duress. Darnold seems to have trouble reading the field. Even during his prime Cam had accuracy issues, but he had a great deep ball. The shoulder injuries have hindered his abilty to push the ball down the field consistently. I don’t think a any DC worries about Cam beating the deep which makes it easier for db’s to sit on his routes. The Oline is terrible which doesn’t help matters, but we aren’t gonna win a SB with either of these guys behind center. I could see keeping possibly keeping Cam as a backup/one year stop gap while a young guy develops, but we need to have a franchise guy (preferably a draft choice) starting by 2023.

Great RB. He’s had a great game today…..but he needs to sit for the rest of this game.

After last weeks debacle I decided to skip this game. Imagine my surprise when I got home and saw that we were up 20-0 just before halftime. Now we just scored a TD in the 3rd quarter. That’s a rarity for his team this season, This looks like it’s gonna be our best game of the season.

Teddy was signed for 3 seasons I believe. That contract was perfect in length because it would give you time to see if Teddy was the guy, or draft a successor if he wasn't. Imagine if we had kept Teddy this season and not traded down in the draft. We would have had our choice of 6 left tackles and/or 3 interior lineman, including Creed Humphrey (the best center in the draft). It's very possible we could have easily walked away with 2 starters on the O-line from the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Having another year in the system and a "healthier" CMC would have helped Teddy's performance. By year 3 I think we could have been a legitimate playoff threat with solid depth on both sides of the ball.

In fairness to Rhule, it's possible that the fracture wasn't picked up by the medical staff until this week. Sometimes, even doctors can overlook something. I fractured my toes years ago, but happened to have an appointment for a physical that week. My doctor pointed it out after the X-ray. I was a little surprised to see how small it appeared on the screen. Back in 2000, Bronco RB (and Hall of Famer) Terrell Davis was coming off a knee injury in 1999 that would eventually result in his premature retirement. He said that when he hit the field again that season he knew something was off even though he had been cleared to play. Five games in the year he had to shut it down. According to an internet site, this was due to a stress condition in the injured leg. But, I can remember reading at that time that he had a fracture in his leg was un-diagnosed/missed at the start of the season. I don't think the staff would send him out there with a fractured scapula on purpose.

It may explain why he didn’t do a better job pushing the ball downfield against the Pats. It may have also affected his accuracy on the pick 6 when he missed an open Ian Thomas. Unfortunately, it doesn’t excuse he end-zone pick. That was just a bad decision. As soon as that ball left his hand I knew it was going to be an incompletion or an INT. Props for suiting up. You guys know that had to hurt.

I will regret not drafting Justin Fields when/if he wins a Super Bowl in Chicago during his rookie contract.

Adding Lineman thru free agency would be ideal, but after the way things have transpired here the past two years, I’m not sure the cream of the crop in the 2022 of FA’s will want to come here.

This is why it's hard for me to fully embrace analytics. They don't tell the whole story. According to the numbers the Cowboy o-line is just a little bit better than our in terms of pass blocking. I think we all would agree that isn't the case. But, we also know that our line doesn't hold blocks very long. It's one of the reasons why Darnold seems to always be on the run. Perhaps other teams have QB's that do a better job getting the ball out of the QB's hand in a timely manner in terms of their schemes. What this does show us is that we do not have dependable blockers in our passing and rushing game.