SCO96

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/carolina-panthers https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/cap/ Both of these sites have us with over $28.5 million in dead cap space for 2023 and significantly over the cap to start the new season. Who are we gonna have to cut or restructure this off-season.

We can't always trust what comes out of the FO though. In 2021 Matt Rhule said that his "process was working" and that the team was getting better. Outside of JC Horn, Brian Burns, and possibly the surprise player of the year Frankie Luvu (100+ tackles, 7 sacks, and 1 INT) what big pieces would you say are in place? I'll admit he did a GREAT job on the O-line! As I pointed out earlier that defense is suspect. If we don't add any depth in 2022 and Burns ends up missing some games we literally do not have a pass rush. That's a big "IF". Bryce probably weighs less than most of us on this board and could get broken in half in the NFL. CJ Stroud comes from a OHIO STATE program that has NEVER produced a good pro QB the last 65 years. Yet, people feel that we need to mortgage our draft capital b/c these two "might be the guy" We can likely find a competent QB just as good as either at #9. It' like some are saying Frank Reich, McCown, and whoever we hire at OC can't win next year if we don't get Stroud or Young. A lot of us just don't see it that way.

None of the guys I mentioned were "piss poor quarterbacks". None were superstars but they knew to manage the game. Plukett won 2 SBs and his team were the underdogs in both of them. . They all played well win the team needed them the most. We'd all love to have a great QB behind center. My point that a good (not bad or below average, but good) QB can win in this league with a strong supporting cast. As great as Manning was, his teams lost by double digits in two Superbowls. Jake D played better in his loss to NE in SB 13 than Peyton played in any of his 4 SB appearances. And no, I don't think Dilfer would have won that game last night. But here's something interesting. Mahomes stat line was 21/27, 182 yards 3TDS and 0 INTs. He made some big plays by avoiding some sacks and scrambling that provided the margin of victory. But that you don't have to be an "ELITE QB" to put up stat-line like that. He made the plays when he needed to and he didn't make one mistake or take sack. If most teams could have their QB's play solid and mistake free football week in and week out they'll always be in contention for a championship. We disagree a bit, but thanks for keeping things civil.

People really aren't resistant to the idea that you need strong QB play to win a championship. We're resistant to the idea that giving up a several of our #1, #2 and possibly #3 draft picks in the in the 2023-2025 drafts to move up to get Bryce Young and CJ Stroud (neither is a sure bet to excel in the NFL) in the draft. Contrary to popular opinion, our roster is not that strong. We have some nice pieces in place. But we are not a stacked team by any measure. Our defensive tackles combined for 2 sacks on the season. One player (Brian Burns) is responsible for 12.5 of our 35 team sacks, and a segment on this board actually wants to trade him. Our 2nd leading pass rusher was a LB (Luvu had 7 sacks) we acquired in free agency. One D-lineman had 5 sacks, another had 2.5. No one else had more 1. Several didn't have any. Our Secondary had 10 INTs. Our Safeties didn't have any of them. A player who almost missed half the season was tied for 2nd on the team (2 INTS) with CJ Henderson who didn't miss a game. Our best corner had 3. The other 3 came from Luvu, Brown and Roy, the latter two are DT's. Christian was the 2nd leading receiver in 2022, despite playing half the season with another team. Outside of DJ, no wideout eclipsed 30 catches this year. Our TE's are not passing threats. They combined for 3 TD's (all by Tremble) and would not start on any team in the NFL. Shaq and Luvu had over 100 tackles. No other LB eclipsed 50. We could try to trade up and pick Stroud or Young, but we'd have to mortgage the future to do it. How do we fill the holes at DE, DT, OLB, S, WR, TE, and CB if we give away #1 ,#2 picks, #3 picks in 2023, 2024 and 2025? We can sit still at #9, grab a QB, and find starters for half of those positions in this years draft with our #2 and # 3 draft choices alone. Or you can grab BPA at #9, draft a rookie to groom later in the draft, and still fill multiple holes. And, if you did hold off on a QB this year (not ideal, but it could happen), we would literally be able to move up to a higher spot and part with draft choices in 2024 to get our for two reasons: 1) We'd have most of our holes already filled. 2) Every drafted starter on our team would be on their rookie deal in 2024 with the exception of Moton and DJ who have already been resigned and Burns who would be FA at the end of 2023.

Good post. But, QB's just don't "will their teams to victory". QB's don't block, catch passes (at least most of the time), make tackles, intercept passes and force fumbles, kick FG's, or run back kicks. You put a Mahomes, Brady, or Montana on a team that cannot competently do all of the above on a consistent basis, or when it matters most, they won't win SB's. If you put a Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, Jim Plunkett, Jeff Hostetler on a team that does all of the above very well and the the latter guys don't turn the ball over & make three or four big plays per game, and get the ball out on time, you can win with them. None of the top tier QB's you allude in your post to played on bad/mediocre teams.

It's a team game. There are no "one man gangs" in pro football. A great QB needs help on both sides of the ball to win championships. I grew up watching Dan Fouts lead "Air Coryell" threw most of the 1980's. Probably the best offense of the 80's in terms of yardage and points per game. They never made a SB b/c the defense couldn't stop anyone when it mattered in the playoffs Jalen Hurts played the game of his life last night...and lost. His fumble ended up being a factor in the loss, but if the Eagle defense and Special Teams had played better in the 2nd half he'd have a SB ring right now. Even Mahomes needed a defensive TD in the first half and big punt return/ST play that swung momentum in the 2nd half to win the game. Football is the ultimate team sport. You don't have to be great in all 3 phases of the game (Offense, Defense, Special teams). But, if you are mediocre to bad in any one of them you won't win a Super Bowl.

Great point. Look at the difference between the offensive line play in KC’s last two SB appearances.They couldn’t keep pressure off of Mahomes in the Tampa game or run the ball and got blown out. KC kept pressure off of Mahomes last night (I don’t think they even gave up a sack in the game), ran the ball well, and won their 2nd Super Bowl in 4 years.

Or or score a a TD to win the game.

I’ve never seen a QB win a Super Bowl that didn’t have a strong supporting cast on both sides of the all. Teams, not QBs, win championships. That’s why it would be ridiculous for us to trade away multiple high draft choices in multiple years to move up the 1st or 2nd spot in the draft to grab a QB. Outside of our O-line and possibly our RB tandem, what other position group in is actually strong on our team? We need help at DE, DT, LB, S, CB, WR, TE in addition to QB. The only reason we almost won the NFC South is because we played in the worst division in football in 2022. If a team claims the title at 8-9, even a 6-11 team can say “we only finished 2 games out first place”.

Stafford is living proof that a bad franchise can keep a player form reaching his potential or ultimate goal of winning a championship. We haven't had a winning season since 2017. We haven't had back to back winning season in our 28 year history. We've been so bad since Tepper acquired the team that I'd be happy to make the playoffs, win the division title and finish above .500 two years in a row.

First statement isn't entirely true. A great QB can elevate a bad franchise, but he can't win a SB with an inept front office. The Lions front office was bad for years. Barry Sanders and Calving Johnson retired at their peak rather than continue playing for them. Matt Stafford coudn't win a playoff game in Detroit. He goes to LA and wins a SB in his first year there. He was added to a franchise that had already pieces in place to complement his game. Then they went out and acquird OBJ midseason. I see you didn't bother all the great players Carr had on defense while he's been there Oh wait, you cant because the Raiders really haven't had any except Kahlil Mack, and they traded him Bears before his rookie deal was up because they didn't want to pay him. Burrow had Tee Higgins and Ja'marr Chase to throw to in his 2nd season. That defense improved significantly between 2021 and 2022, and may be the most underrated defensive unit in football. Joe Mixon is solid at RB. No way he get to the playoffs, much less the SB, with the team that the Bengals put on the field in 2021. Lamar doesn't have all-pro WR's to throw to but their offensive schemes and running gameput points on the scoreboard and the Ravens alway seem to have a defense formidable enough to keep them competitive year in and year out. Like I said, I'm not a Carr fan. But let's be honest. How may QB's do you think could have won a SB with the Raiders franchise during the past 25 years?

I'm not a Derek Carr fan. As I said in an earlier post I'm indifferent to him. But, he's had the misfortune of playing with the Raiders, one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the NFL. Carr entered the league in 2014. Look at the coaches that he's played for. Josh McDaniels 2022 Las Vegas Raiders 6-11-0 Jon Gruden 2018-2021 Las Vegas Raiders 29-36-0 0-1-0 Jack Del Rio 2015-2017 Oakland Raiders 25-23-0 0-1-0 Tony Sparano 2014 Oakland Raiders 3-9-0 Dennis Allen 2012-2014 Oakland Raiders 8-28-0 He's played for five different coaches in 9 years, and only one of them has a winning record. He may share some of the blame for the Raider lack of success, but it defintely isn't all on him. These aren't the Raiders I grew up with in the late 70's and early 80's. Their front office leaves a lot to be desired. Check our the link below to see how just bad they've been for the past 25 years. Their dysfunction started a long time before David Carr joined that team. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/raiders-head-coaches-since-2014 As far as Lamar Jackson, I love watching him play. But, if we want to compete for a SB we need a QB who is actually going to stay healthy enough to play in the postseason. He literally hasn't finished the last two seasons but it appears he wants to set the market with his next contract. His playoff record is 1-4 with no trips to the AFC title game. He hasn't exactly lit it up in the post season either. BTW, I'm all in on drafting a rookie and grooming him to lead the team for the rest of the decade. I won't be disappointed at all if we pass on Carr (no pun intended). But, I don't think he's a scrub QB either. Don't forget that he also played in a division with a KC team that hasn't played a road playoff game since Mahomes took over as starter and won 2 of the last 4 Super Bowls.

As well the should. But, to even things out they need to crackdown on WR "push-offs" and all of the pick plays we see on the rub route. I enjoyed tonight's game. But playing defense in football is harder than playing defense in any other sport. And every year it seems to get harder. Maybe they should eliminate tackling next so the offenses can score every time they get the ball. It would be great for everyone's fantasy team.

Brown would be much easier to replace than Burns. He's a good player, but so far he hasn't shown that he's a player that you build your defense around. On a serious note, how much do you think Brown is worth to another team? I would be surprised if we got more than a 3rd for him.

I don't get the "trade Burns" argument. We had a total of 35 sacks last season. Burns had 12.5 of them. That means literally 1 out of every 3 sacks we had was recorded by Burns.. A LB Frank Luvu (7 sacks) was second on the team with 7. No other lineman had more than 5. For all the talk of Derrick Browns improvement he only has one sack. Our DT combined for a total of 2 sacks on the season. We just can't assume we can replace that type of sack production in 2023 if we traded him for a haul of draft picks. We need to add players to the line to complement our best pass rusher. Trading him would make our defense worse.

The great entertainers seems to be able to keep you eyes glued to them if they're on the stage with just a couple of people or even by themselves. If you took away dancers and she was on that stage by herself that show would have totally forgettable.

I know Vrabel played for Bill Belichik, but did he actually work as a coach under him in NE?

You know, I really can't balme him for that. They decided to go in a different direction, which is well within their right. Carr responds by saying I'm going to pick where I go and I'm not going to let you get anything in return for kicking me to the curb. I love it!

Good point. Trevor Lawrence looked great at the end of 2022. The year before he had 3 games in which he threw 3 INTS. He even had 4 INTS in the first half of this years playoff game against the Chargers. He had 12 TDs and 17 INTS in 2021. This year those stats were 25 TDs and 8 INTS! Matthew Stafford threw 20 INTs in his rookie season Peyton Manning holds the rookie record with a whopping 28 INTs Those guys have one thing in common, they were all taken with the first pick of the draft. They're given more opportunities to mature/improve because 1) the investment the team has made in them and 2)they all went to terrible teams that needed rebuilding. Guys taken after the 1st round are usually looked down upon because of their draft position. Anyone picked after round one is automatically labeled a "non-franchise QB". In the right environment these guys could turn out to be just just as good or better than they guys picked ahead of them. Unfortunately, most of them want get the chance because teams will likely panic if they don't excel immediately and decide to go all in for a guy in the top 10. We haven't seen Corral take a live snap in a regular season game under the guidance of a competent NFL coaching staff and large number of the fans on this board have already written him off.

I'm not a big fan of Carr. I don't have a dislike for him either. I'm sort of indifferent exactly. But, I think it's pretty evident that he's better than any QB we've had since Cam's last healthy season (2017). We probably would have won our division by a couple of games last year if Carr had put up the numbers he had in Las Vegas last season. (24 TD, 14 TDs, 3,522yds and passer rating of 86.3). If we somehow ended up signing him, I wouldn't be thrilled...but I wouldn't jump off of a cliff either. He'd immediately be the best QB in our putrid division. Under the guidance of Reich, McCown, and whoever we hire at OC I think we'd be the odds on favorite to win our division in 2023, which would guarantee us a home playoff game.

That would be a really dumb move on our part.

Based on salary the 4 major pieces would be (QB, LT , CB , Pass rusher...usually DE, but Aaron Donald would be an exception at DT). Those are the highest paid positions because they are the hardest to fill. When I referred to pieces I was referring to our team across the board in terms of the depth chart. If you had an all-pro at each position of those positions you won't make the playoffs if the rest of the team is trash. Our team is looking good on the O-line. We should be even better if we resign Bozeman at Center. RB: Freeman and Hubbard played well last season. That tandem could be even more effective in 2023 with Frank Reich overseeing things. WR: DJ belongs in the NFL. He's a solid two at worst. Possibly even a #1 in the right offense. Outside of him how many of our WR's could have started on another team in the NFL and ben a true offensive threat in 2022? TE: 42 receptions combined for our 3 TE's on the roster and 3 TD's (all from Tremble) Our D-line is a problem. Outside of Burns (12.5 sacks), we don't have much in terms of the pass rush. Do you know who finished 2nd in sacks in 2022? Frankie Luvu (7 sacks). The next highest d-lineman in terms of sacks was Marquis Haynes (5). Gross-Matos had 2.5. For all of the talk of Derrick Brown improving (which he did) he finished the season with the same number of sacks as Jeremy Chinn...(1 sack). We could use an interior lineman to collapse the pocket and/or a beast to come from the LE spot. LB: Luvu was a pleasant surprise last year (111 tackles, 7 sacks). Shaq led the team in tackles (135). He's steady and provides some veteran leadership. But he's not an elite player. He had 0.5 sacks and no INT's. No other LB on our roster had 50 tackles. CB/S: JC led the team with 3 INTS despite missing 3 games. Donte finished in a tie with CJ Henderson (17 games) for second on the team with (2) despite missing the last 8 games of the season. We had 3 others players with one INT each (Luvu, Brown, and Roy). Our team had 10 INT's for the season. Two of our defensive tackles had more INTs than Safeties, who had NONE in 2022. --- We need to use those extra picks and put some playmakers at Safety, LB, WR, and the D-line. We could honestly use another CB. We saw how bad we looked without JC and Donte out there down the stretch.

I would like to see what Corral under Frank Reich's tutelage in our new offense. I don't believe any QB was going to flourish under Matt Rhule's leadership. Bridgewater is never gong to be great, but he played better in Denver in 2021 season as starter than he did in his 2020 season in Carolina. He had a career high in TD passes and the 2nd highest QB rating of his career with the Broncos in 2021. Mayfield completion percentage and QB rating improved when he joined the Rams in the middle of the 2022 season. I think even their most avid haters will agree their tenure in Carolina would have gone much better under a better coaching staff. Coaching makes a huge difference when it comes to QB play. The difference between 2021 Trevor Lawrence and 2022 Trevor Lawrence is largely attributable to one thing: the change in coaching from Urban Meyer to Doug Pederson. I don't think Corral is as bad as he looked in preseason. I've seen BAMA fans make post about how they were glad to see him leave Ole Miss because the defense had a hard time playing against him. Chris Simms thought he was the best QB in last year's class. I want to see how he does in a Frank Reich offense.

Yes. A lot of us feel this way. If we drafted a QB at #9 and he succeeds we'll all be happy. I think the top 4 (Young, Stroud, Levis , and Richardson) could all do well in Carolina with Reich as our new HC. The man just seems to understand offensive football. I feel he'd help each of them maximize their potential and at worst make them serviceable QB's. We'd still have the following picks: * Our own 2nd rounder. * San Francisco's second-rounder * San Francisco's third-rounder * Their own fourth-rounder * San Francisco's fourth-rounder * Our own fifth-rounder We could use those picks to really build up our roster to improve the rookie's chances of succeeding immediately. If the rookie bombed, which you really won't know the 2nd or 3rd year, you'd still have a better team...and all of the your 2024 draft picks to try again if necessary. You could afford to move up in 2024 if the right guy was there because most of the major pieces needed to compete would be in place. My problem with the "move up" philosophy is the belief that every draft has a franchise QB in the top 5. If Mayfield, Darnold, Mariotta, Rosen were the top 4 prospects this year there are people on this forum who would insist we needed to swap # 1 picks with Houston or Chicago and give several years of high draft picks to grab one of them. That is too risky unless you already have a team that is only a QB away from making a SB run. I don't see a QB in this draft worth that type of gamble.

Usually, when you see proposals like this the teams try to equalize the deal in terms of the point value for draft choices. The team that moves up tends to get a couple of lower selections to balance things out. We don't appear to be getting anything in this deal besides the #1 draft choice. We're exchanging first round picks with the Chicago and giving then 4 other selections. I'd have to pass on this one unless all of the pieces were in place except for a franchise QB.