SCO96

I actually had a little difficulty putting him in category 2. Flacco was great for a the first half of his career in the 2010's. He had a strong supporting cast ... especially on defense...a great head coach....and a great GM. After he got his big deal...and the the defense started to age IMHO he didn't carry the team going forward like I thought he would. Good...almost great...QB in his prime. But, he was never top 5. Brady, Manning, Brees. Big Ben, and Phillip River were great for a longer period of time in his own conference (AFC) Still, I have no problem with your perspective. The top 4 are considered all time greats. Rivers is a borderline Hall of Famer. Do you think the majority would feel the same about Joe Flacco. He finished his career as a backup. That never happened to the first four on the list.

Thanks for posting this. I already watched it when you posted it under another topic. It’s telling that a guy that doesn’t dissect game film for a living is able to point out so many flaws in our passing game.

I agree with your last statement. Better coaching can create a “different environment”. Sean McVey was light years ahead of Jeff Fisher offensive game planning and almost won a SB with Goff. Bart Starr played his entire career in Green Bay. He payed under Vince Lombardi from 1959-1967. His 5 championships came between 1961-1967. In the 7 seasons he played w/out Lombardi ( 3 before he arrived and 4 after left the team )as his head coach he had 1 winning season: 5-4 in 1969. Footnote: The Packers were 1-10-1 the year before Lombardi arrived (1958). I read some place that the only all-time Packer greats that Lombardi drafted were Herb Adderley (cb) and Dave Robinson (olb). All of the other great players who played on those dynastic teams from the 1960s were already there when he took over in 1959. Those guys went 7-5 in 1959. Lost the NFL title game in 1960…and then won 5 over the next 7 years. That dude just knew how to get the best out of people. I’m not expecting any coach to do that in this era. But, Bryce needs someone who is really going to coach him if he wants to succeed as a QB at the NFL level.

Did any of you have time to watch the entire clip? One of our members posted some all 22 footage last month. He was the first person to call attention to BY’s footwork. His drop back isn’t smooth. You can see it in the video. Also when he passes he doesn’t always step into his throws. Poor velocity leads to inaccuracy and turnovers. A guy like Cam was so strong in his prime that he could get away with that in games. Young can’t. It doesn’t help matters to see the O-line allowing too much pressure up the middle & from the blindside. Sometime he doesn’t have time to set his feet. This team needs to totally revamp the passing game. You can’t win in the NFL if your QB can’t make big plays downfield.

I actually agree with you. I don't see him ever being elite. But, he can be a lot better than he is now. I think strong coaching and a better supporting cast would at least help him reach his peak. NFL scout/commentator Bucky Brooks put it best. There are two types of QBs in the NFL 1) QBs that pull the wagon most of the time 2) QBs that need the wagon to pull them a lot of the time True franchise quarterbacks fall in the first category. But, we've seen level 2 guys win championships on solid teams (Jim McMahon, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WujqkKtaQ6w To say Bryce had a bad day is an understatement. After watching this I actually felt a little better. There are three things holding him back. This video has every drop back from week 9 1) We all know that the offensive line has been terrible with their pass blocking. That can be fixed. 2) Bryce could be a lot better if he were better coached. His footwork and throwing mechanics are bad. I think that why he can’t drive the ball downfield. I think strong QB coaching would do wonders for his game. This staff has got to step up or be replaced if Young is gonna succeed in Carolina. 3) WR are none factors most of the time. All 3 of the above can be fixed, but I don’t have faith in the current FO and coaching staff to make things better.

I think you are overly optomistic We played in a terrible division in 2022. The Buc won it with an 8-9 record. Had Wilks coached the entire season we probably would have scratched out 8-9 wins and won it ourselves. Our poor QB play as a whole held us back. The consensus seemed to be that we were a QB away from competing. You don't give up multiple high draft choices and your best receiver... move up to to get a QB at #1... with the expectations that 2023 is a development year. Our drafts have been bad to mediocre since Tepper bought team. Most Panther fans have no faith in the FO to pick the right players and sign the correct FA's. We haven't done it so far. I don't think there is a team in the NFL that envys our roster. If the F.O had done it's job over the past 5 seasons we would be on the verge our 6th straight losing season I see no evidence of things turning around in the near future unless F.O. and scouting department is overhauled and they are replaced with people who actually know how to evaluate player talent.

Question for you (or anyone else who wants to chime in). Do you think Howell's improving game play is due to his innate talent, the coaching (Eric Bienemy) or a combination of both? I think its both. Howell has the physical tools to be a top 10 QB in the NFL. I also think Bienemy has been a big part of his development. The Chiefs have lost a lot at WR in recent years. But, I think that offense has lost some juice without Eric. I'm glad to see Sam play well, but I can't help but think he wouldn't be as good in Carolina drafted him in the 3rd round instead of Matt Corrall. Then again, it's been said that Reich likes big QB's. Maybe our offense would look better if Sam was throwing the ball instead of Bryce. Thoughts?

Sometimes I will refuse to post for fear of getting flamed or causing dissension on the forum. Now that we’ve made our bed I can speak my peace. I and (several others I must add) thought trading up was a bad idea. The cost is expensive even if you succeed. If you fail it can set a franchise back for years. I would have been cool with letting Levi’s fall to us at 9. I never understood why he was so despised in the first place. We would have kept our picks and had a QB who could at least push the ball downfield. But, if we had done that half of this board would have had a mental meltdown. I also would have been cool taking Howell in the 3rd or 4th round in 2022 and using all of the 2023 picks to build a solid cast around him. A bad franchise should never give away multiple high choices in multiple seasons and pin their hopes on any rookie QB. If a team is competitive and has a solid roster on both sides of the ball you can afford to take a swing for the fences (Like the 49ers did with Lance…which was a huge mistake in hindsight). A good team like SF was able to overcome Lance decision because they were good without him. The Chiefs were a playoff team the year before they moved up to draft Mahomes. Had he been a bust they still had a good, if not great QB, in Alex Smith. Picking a QB in the the top 5 is not a a sure fire bet to win…or even get to…a SB

Assuming Tepper makes a change, If a strong coaching candidate or GM has more than one option for the 2024 I can't see him viewing Carolina as Option A. Someone like an Eric Bienemy who has struggled to get a HC position, or a FO executive who has struggled to get a GM job, would probably take it just for the opportunity. As you stated we have no 1st round draft choice. On offense we don't appear to have a franchise QB on the roster. We have a solid slot receiver but no real threats on the outside or at the TE position. Our run blocking is mediocre. At times our pass blocking is downright awful. No consistent pass rush on defense. 1 solid player at LB. Our potential Pro Bowl CB is always hurt. No ball hawks lurk in the secondary. Not much on the current roster to work with. It would take a coaching genius (which we don't appear to have) to take the current roster and make them competitive. This means a GM with a shrewd gift for talent evaluation (which we don't appear to have) has to come in and find some draft day steals, overlooked gems from the undrafted guys, and fill in the other gaps with affordable free agents and solid trades. That's a lot to overcome especially if you have an owner who may be a hindrance to your properly doing your job.

Well put. Here's the ironic thing. Tepper was the one who was preaching that the franchise needed "sustained success" instead of "sustained mediocrity". Tepper was the one who cited the fact that Carolina has never had back to back winning season when he purchased the team. Well, we may not have had back to back winning seasons prior to Tepper's arrival. But, we were never the laughingstock of the NFL either. We've been to two Super Bowls. Every other other year or Carolina was either a playoff team or at least competing for a playoff spot. Even in our down years we'd win 6-8 games per year and be somewhat competitive on the field. Our franchise never came close to having 5 straight losing seasons (Six if you count the current year). We've had good/great players on the field who were exciting to watch on Sundays. Right now I don't believe we have one player on the roster that a fan of another fan would pay money to see. I was not upset when Jerry Richardson sold the team. I thought it would be the start of a new era of sustained success. Now, I long for the days of "sustained mediocrity". It's much better than "sustained suck"

Your "hired mercenary" opinion is probably spot on for a lot of pro athletes. I would feel the same way if I were a low draft pick trying to cash in bigtime on my 2nd contract. But, if I were already a millionaire (and Tee Higgins already is. He's made over $7mil prior to this season; and will have made $10 mil by the end of 2023 ), I'd want to go out and have fun week in and week out. I couldn't do that if I were playing for a mediocre/bottom tier franchise like Carolina. I'd 25% to 30% less to play for a solid competitor. Millionaires can always find ways to make even more money off of the playing field. But, we all have different ways of viewing things so I'm sure a lot of people on the forum would disagree with my point of view.

I see nothing wrong with the logic expressed in your post. We desperately need a playmaker at WR and help on the O-line. But, Why do you think Tee Higgins, or any top FA in their prime, would want to come play for the Panthers? This franchise has lost a lot of prestige since Tepper took over the team. I can't see a top tier FA viewing Carolina as a desirable landing spot. 5 straight losing seasons prior to 2023. Never had back to back winning seasons in almost 30 years of existence. Terrible front office. Coaching staff(s) seem to struggle developing draft picks after round one. Unless a guy grew up as a Panther fan, or no other team want to play them what they want, why would top FA want sign Carolina?

I was literally getting ready to type your first sentence in a reply to this thread until I saw your post. This is exactly why I have no faith in Fitz as GM going forward. He picked the same type of WR in 2021 with TMJ...who now has permission to seek a trade. We shouldn't be picking JAGS in the 2nd round of the NFL draft at WR when the NFL is becoming more of a passing league every year. I'm not spending a 2nd round pick on a "possession receiver" unless my roster is deep with talent (on both sides of the ball) and I already have two legit players (who can get separation) at the Wideout positions. You can find possession receivers good hands but poor separation on the 3rd day of the draft or even as undrafted FA's.

The 1999 Rams kind of fall into that category although their HC wasn't "fired". St. Louis won the SB that year with Dick Vermeil as HC and Mike Martz as OC. Vermeil "retired" after the SB win and Mike Martz was promoted to the HC position the same day. Those of us who remember that time will recall that the NFL Insiders were saying that Vermeil was "encouraged" to ride off into the sunset in order to let Martz (the hottest OC in the game at that time) take over the reigns of the "Greatest Show on Turf". In hindsight its obvious that Vermeil was not ready to call it quits. Vermeil returned to coach the Chiefs in 2001 and kept the HC job until 2005. The Chiefs were in the top 5 in total yards from from scrimmage every year he was there. Vermeil left that Rams team in good shape. I've always believed he would have got another SB win with that squad. I don't think Belichick would have outcoached Vermeil the way he outcoached Martz in the Patriots 1st SB win in 2001.

Add a pass catching threat at TE to your scenario and we’d really be in business!

And a receiver that can get separation

I've been saying this all season. All of those guys from the same coaching tree (McVey, Shannahan, McDaniels, LaFleuer, etc ) call rollout/bootleg plays several times a game and they often result in big plays down the field. Our current playbook apparently puts little emphasis on those types of plays. Successful deep passing requires time. Our pass blocking isn't holding up most of the time. If Carolina plans to ride with Bryce, they're going to haver to build a wall of pass blocking lineman in front of him. Even the 2nd string guys will have to above average pass blockers. The interior has to be solidified so he can step up when he's passing from the pocket.

Not trying to to start anything, but let's take a look at our 1st round picks since 2020. 2020 Derrick Brown 2021 Jayce Horn 2022 Ikem Ekwonu 2023 Bryce Young I hated the Brown pick. Good...not great player. If you pick a DT at #6 in the draft he needs to be dominant. He's never really taken over a game. His presence on the field does not make the players around him significantly better. I do think he would be more impactful if he had more talent around him on the D-line. Horn is a great talent...can't stay healthy. No value to us if he's never on the field. We could have had Micah Parsons or a different CB (Patrick Surtain) OK rookie season. Ekwonu has regressed in 2023. He could still turn it around. A lot of us believe he could possibly be an All-Pro talent at guard. Bryce is going to get better. But, he's going to have a limited impact if he can't push the ball downfield. If he had a do-over, I don't think any of us would choose him over Stroud or Richardson. So, if we had extra choices, I'd still be skeptical if the current FO were making the picks. We're missing on top 10-15 picks. You can't do that if you're trying to rebuild a team.

This goes back to Scott and the rest of the FO. We've picked receivers in the 2nd round in 2021 and 2023 and so far we literally have nothing to show for it. If one of those guys was even a legit #2 our offense would be significantly better. I don't see how a GM could go into either one of those drafts and say that TMJ and Mingo were the best players on board (or even the best at their positions) when it was time to turn in the draft card. There is a reason I'm not that upset about not taking the two #1's for Brian Burns that the Rams supposedly offered last year. I have no faith in the FO to pick the right player.

Tua just made a nice completion on a QB bootleg/rollout. Why dont we have a play like that in the playbook for Bryce. It would probably give him a better chance of completing something downfield.

Nothing personal towards Miles, but we didn’t need him this year. We should have kept Donta and kept him paired with Chiba. That money could have been used elsewhere on the roster. Now, we don’t have a big back to lean on on those 4th and short plays now. It looks like Bryce may be on the verge of putting things together. I think he’s gonna look a whole better during the last quarter of this season. He really needs a playmaker to complement Theilan.

To this day I believe Carolina would have beat Denver in SB 50 if Smitty was still with the team that season. He was the missing spark/element that we needed to get over the emotional letdown (that Cam never seemed to recover from) of the sack fumble by Von Miller.

On paper, and at that time, this wasn't a terrible move. Robbie was coming off of a 1,000 yard season. He was playing pretty well under a coach that had worked with him in college. My problem was extending him and then trading down twice in the 2nd round to draft a receiver who has had no major impact on the playing field. We were picking in the mid 30's. After the trade I think we fell to #58. How much playing time was TMJ going to get with DJ and Robbie holding down the #1 and #2 spots? We didn't need a receiver chosen that high in the draft after the extension. We passed on several high caliber lineman in 2021 and ended up picking a JAG at wideout. To make matters worse, the Chiefs picked Creed Humphrey at center in the 2nd round...after the TMJ selection. Carolina could have come out of the the 2021 draft with 2 starters even after the two trade downs if we had taken Humphrey and Christensen in back to back rounds.

I hate saying someone needs to be fired. These are real people with families that will be affected by a sudden job loss. That said, Scott has done nothing to give us hope that this team is going to thrive going forward with him as GM. We've spent 2nd round choices on WR's two of the past 3 seasons (2021, 2023) who have had no significant impact on the playing field. We could have got similar production (and possibly better) from a 3rd or 4th round guy and use the 2nd rounders in those years to address bigger needs. Unfortunately, based on his drafting record he probably wouldn't have used those picks to get the right guys. I can't imagine how sorry this offense would be if we hadn't been able to sign Theilan in the offseason.