SCO96

Good Point. Back in the 1960's (before my time of course) the Redskins had a Hall of Fame QB (Sonny Jurgensen), 2 Hall of Fame receivers (Bobby Mitchell and Charlie Taylor), and a TE who should arguably be in the Hall of Fame (Jerry Smith). They never came closer to sniffing a title because the team wasn't overly talented at the other positions. I grew up watching the "Air Coryel" Chargers in the late 70's and early 80's. They had a HOF QB (Dan Flouts), HOF WR (Charlie Joiner), HOF TE (Kellen Winslow) and 2 WR's who actually had HOF talent but had fairly short prime years in their career (John Jefferson & Wes Chandler). They could score on anybody, but the defense was the Achilles hill for those squads. They made 2 AFC title games but never made it to the SB. Minnesota had 2 HOF receivers, Chris Carter and Randy Moss, in the 1990's /early 2000's. Same thing. 2 NFC title games, no SB appearance. Even the 49er's history proves you don't need superstar receivers to win championships. People will be quick to point out that Jerry Rice and John Taylor were dominant players on the 88-89 title teams. But, Montana and Walsh had already won 2 SB's prior to their arrival with Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. Good players but and neither of those guys will ever make the Hall. Look at who Brady was throwing to for his first 3 win between 2001-2004. Outside of Deion Branch I bet most of us couldn't name the other WR's on those teams. Great WR's are always needed. However, their presence alone won't win a title. It takes a complete team.

You and I (and probably half of this forum) have good reason to be concerned about taking a WR with our 2nd round draft choice. Check out our draft history with WR's in round 2. 1996 Mushin Muhammad 2004 Keary Colbert 2007 Dwayne Jarret 2015 Devin Funchess 2017 Curtis Samuel 2021 Terrace Marshall, Jr. 2023 Johnathan Mingo Moose was a great WR. Samuel has been a serviceable WR in the NFL and definitely better than anyone drafted in the 2000's. But, he has never been...or never will be...a #1 receiving option. To make matters worse, two of his best seasons in the NFL occurred when he left Carolina after the 2020 season. The other guys should have never been drafted as high as the were by Carolina. Maybe not even drafted at all. They may have been more productive WR's with better coaching or on other teams. History shows they are just footnotes in Panther lore.

While I think defense is our most pressing need, I wouldn't jump out of window if Morgan decided to get Bryce a stud TE with that first pick. A reliable/steady TE is a benefit to any offense, especially one with a a young QB. Look at how our team performed after Bryce started to put things together after his benching. Imagine if had a Wesley Walls or a Greg Olsen at TE on last year's squad. Carolina would've been knocking on the door of the playoffs in 2024... despite having arguably the worst defense in the NFL and the worst defense in Panther history.

I can see KC trying to move up and get in the top 10. But, they are an elite team. KC (and Baltimore for that matter) are picking at the end of each round. There's no way we move down to #31 to allow them to move up and grab a blue chip OT. Even their 2nd round pick is lower than the one we're getting from the Rams. Morgan would be writing his ticket out of Carolina if tried to make a deal with any team drafting below #15.

I'm glad a lot of us already understood this. The pundits are saying that this draft doesn't have a lot of elite players, but is good on depth. Why would anyone trade away a 2nd or 3rd round player to move up and grab a guy who isn't' significantly better than a player who would be available if the team stayed put. I understand moving up if all of a sudden there is a run on a position and team has that pegged as a major need. That's not happening this year with picks 1-7. We need to stay put unless some idiot GM does offer us a 2nd rounder to move down no more than 4-5 spots.

I'm against trading down. I'm in favor of staying put and picking the best defensive player/contributor for our woeful defense. However, if we could move down only 4 spots in round 1, come away with a midround 2nd round pick, and only have to give up a 4th round pick (which we'd probably use to pick a JAG), then I could actually stomach that. That would give us 4 picks in the top 100 instead of 3! If we can't find 3 starters with a first round pick, two 2nd rounders, and high 3rd round choice for the worst defense in Panther's history, then it's time to get a new GM.

No offense taken. I was just pointing out that a solid team is not going to miss on their 1st and 2nd round picks for several years in a row. They may have a bad year...but not a string of successive failures. If they did that year in and year out...then they'd be us. Here's what is disheartening. The Eagles have been competitive for most of this decade which means they are typically picking later in the draft and almost always after us. This means we probably had a shot at most of those players while we were on the clock. In hindsight I tend to agree that our 2024 draft could have been better. I'm still willing to give Morgan the benefit until the end of the 2025 season to see if last year's rookies (Legette, Sanders) show significant improvement in the upcoming season. I like what he did by addressing the interior o-line. I don't think Clowney was a bad acquisition. Jalen Coker was a steal as an UDFA. What really tainted our 2024 class was the Brooks selection in round 2. He probably won't be ready until 2026 which means he'd be halfway thru his rookie deal before he can make an impact. I can see taking a day 3 gamble on an injured RB, but not on day 2 when you have so many holes to fill. I'm just glad Chuba really hit his stride last season to give us a viable running game.

Ask yourself this question, based on our trade history on draft day and our history of day 2 picks, do you really trust this front office to make a deal to move up and grab the right player? If the Panthers decide to move up to grab a guy the first thing in my mind is "this guy is going to be a jag" If a team feels like there isn't a big talent drop off moving down to the end of round 2, then may be we should use similar logic. I'm of the opinion we can find a defensive starter in rounds 1, 2, and 3 if we just stay put, and also find a prospect in round 4 to play center. I'd could understand moving down from 8 to the mid teens to pick up an extra 2nd or 3rd, but outside of that I'd be afraid to make a big deal on draft day to move up.

What can of deal can you come up with that would convince a team to help us move higher in the draft? I'd hate to lose our 3rd round pick in the process. There's no way I'm parting with a top 10 pick in the 3rd round with all of our defensive needs. Do you swap 2nds and throw in a 4th and/or 5th? And once again...if most of us value the higher choices, why do we think a team wants to give away high picks to move down to accumulate later round picks?

It sounds good in theory to trade/package lower round picks to move into the higher rounds. However, as you pointed out, the odds of finding quality players drops dramatically on Day 3 of the draft. I don't see why a shrewd GM would give us a 2nd or 3rd draft choice just so they could receive 4th and 5th round picks you mentioned in return. Based on the stats, neither you nor I, would get hoodwinked into such a move as a GM. If we don't take a WR in round 1, we should come away from the draft with 3 defensive starters in rounds 1-3, unless some offensive stud at WR or TE unexpectedly drops. I think it's a bad idea to go into the 2025 draft "assuming" we're going to be able to make some deal to move up on Day 2. I think we're better off doing some in-depth scouting (not a sure thing with our scouting department) on those Day 3 prospects and see if we can come up with some steals that dropped into the lower rounds. And, we need to study which positions have a higher likelihood of being filled in the later rounds. From 2017-2021, over 1/3 of the starting centers were found in rounds 4-7. That doesn't mean that every center is really a starting caliber player. But, if we aren't sold in Cade Mays as our future...and we fail to land a good center in FA, then we should/could use one of those 4th and try to get the highest ranked center on the board.

I'd even be ok with a LB at #8 if we could draft a Luke K, Beason, or even a Dan Morgan (who still holds the record for most tackles in a SB game BTW). These are guys teams have to plan around. We only have 2 of those guys on our defense (Brown and Horn). A LB who can drop into coverage and blitz would be an awesome acquisition.

Take a look at the below Eagle draft classes since 2020. Compare those classes to ours. This is the reason why they're at the top of the NFL and were floundering at the bottom of it. They are killing it in the first 3 rounds of the draft. The same cannot be said for our woeful Panthers.

I was talking more from a theoretical perspective about picking a starter higher than his projected grade. You have clearly analyzed this current draft class more than me. I have to agree that you're right about using # 8 on a blue chip player and not just a guy. If #8 came down to a blue chip DE and blue chip WR you have to take them DE. IF the only blue chip player on the board at #8 is WR I think you have to take him. Maybe you need to be working in the front office

That's a good point. Big time pass rushers just wreck game plans for the opposing team. As someone pointed out, several rushers in this draft have low 1st round grades/high 2nd round grades. In this league you can never have too many pass rushers and defensive backs. If you could move down and pick 2 that wouldn't be a bad thing. I just don't have enough faith in our FO to think they'd pick the right players if they traded down. I think if all of us who are replying to this thread got together to make the pick(s) we'd have as much of a chance of making solid pick(s) than the current brass.

I may be in the minority, but I don't think we need to focus on getting Bryce a #1 WR this draft. Last season we almost beat 3 playoff teams (KC, TB, Philly) in consecutive weeks with our current group of WR's. Legette and Coker should be better next year and it appears Theilen is coming back. We may able to find a FA this offseason to improve the WR core. On the other hand, our defense was arguably the worst in Panther history. It's got to get better or we have no chance of making the playoffs. Anything to improve the front 7 or the secondary has to be the top priority in the draft. I'm also not overly concerned with "draft value". If we could find a DE who could set the edge and get between 8-10 sacks in 2025 he'd be worth picking at #8, even if he had a low 1st round/high 2nd round grade entering the draft. Brian Burns just got a $30 mil per year deal and he can only do one of those things.

I personally would go with an edge player because of our d-line issues. But, I wouldn't be upset with this selection. If JC Horn sticks around we could have one of the top 5 CB duos for the next 3-4 seasons, one of whom would be on a rookie deal. Then you could spend the rest of the draft loading up on d-lineman, LB, S or whatever position had the highest draft value when we're on the clock. If D. Brown comes back healthy in 2025 we'd automatically get better b/c of his presence alone. We my even be able to acquire a starter in FA. We have so many needs that any draft pick that could come in and play well immediately would be a huge boost to the defense.

Anytime you can draft a versatile defensive player its always a positive. Back in the 90's the Cowboys would take S Darren Woodson and move him all over the field. Sometimes he'd be at S; sometimes he'd play the slot; and sometimes he'd be a Dime or Nickel LB. I've seen some d-lineman who were almost equally affective playing DE or DT. It never hurts to have a LB on can play in a 3 point stance or a lineman who you can standup or have him drop into coverage. You can only come up with exotic schemes like that if you have the right players and a coaching staff that know how to make the best use of their talents.

As a GM of a team that was abysmal on defense I wouldn't draft him at 8. But, I do understand the logic if he's the best player on the board. If Warren turns out to only be "really good" he'd be better than anyone we've fielded at TE this decade and would undoubtedly help Bryce in the passing game. I could only see doing that if we had already acquired a starter (or 2) in FA prior to the draft & used every mid round (2-5) pick on the best available defensive players on the board.

There's not a player in this draft worth tanking for. I don't see a big difference between Carolina picking in the top 5 or at 8 based on this draft class. We've got 10 draft picks. Our biggest need is on the defensive side of the ball. There's no reason why the Panthers wouldn't be significantly better by simply picking the best defensive player on the board (at any position) when we're on the clock. If we went all defense in the first 3 rounds we should come away with 3 starters. We should be able to find a possible starter...or a at least a significant contributor...in rounds 4-7.

On this you and I are in complete agreement. I don't know if: 1) we have bad scouts that mislead the front office, or 2) a bad front office that ignores good scouting. 3) a bad front office and bad scouting. I don't think any of us would be offended if Tepper decided to hire an entirely new team of scouts going forward.

Morgan may indeed turn out to be a bad GM. But, I'm not gonna bail on him after one season. The 2024 Panthers were much better than the 2023 edition. It was Morgan who hired Canales, a clear improvement over out previous coaches. This team played hard down the stretch and nearly beat 3 playoff teams (KC, TB, Philly) in 3 consecutive weeks...and 2 of those are in the SB this year. We improved our win total despite having one of the least talented rosters from top to bottom in the NFL. The draft wasn't great (I didn't like the J. Brooks pick either), but we acquired 3 players who should be better in 2025 (Legette, Wallace, and Sanders). We are arguably a center away from having a top 15...if not top 10 O-line in the league. A solid defensive draft in 2025 could put this team into playoff contention for the remainder of the decade. I'm not gauging his 2024 season by the draft alone. I'm looking at win total, our ability to compete week in and week out, FA acquisitions, UDFA's, and our potential to improve in 2025 (we have 10 draft picks, including a 2nd rounder that we lost under Scott F.) Morgan could turn out to be a trash GM, but it's too early to write him off. I think the 2025 draft will be critical in assessing his tenure as GM.

Just because Morgan was his "right hand man" doesn't mean he's destined to be a bad GM. 1) Morgan is a former NFL player who excelled in the league. He has an understanding of a locker room and team chemistry that Scott F could never have. 2) The final decisions rests with the GM, not the assistant GM. JD Vance may be out VP, but I think most of us realize that the D. Trump going to have the final say on what happens in the executive branch. 3) Scott and Matt seemed obsessed with the RAS/physical attributes of their draftees. Several times they passed over players who could have helped us immediately to draft someone with a physical upside. Sometimes you just need to draft the guy you need or take the best player on the board. the very fact that Morgan said he wanted to draft some "DAWGS" shows that his approach to the draft is going to be different from Fitz. I think Scott wanted to show off how smart he was by trying to make "shrewd deals" to move up and down the draft board. Morgan would have never moved down twice from the 30's in 2021 when we needed O-lineman to #58 to draft Terrace Marshall.

I'd keep Clowney (LB) and Robinson (DE). Each guy had 5.5 sacks to lead the team. No other DL had more than 3 sacks. We had one of the worst pass rushes in the NFL last season. No way I'm letting my two best pass rushers go and depend on the rookie or low/middle tier FA to replace them. Those numbers "may have been a little higher" if D. Brown had not been injured all last season. Then again Brown only has 8 sacks in 4 seasons. I don't know if he really would have made much of any impact on our sack totals. I'd target at least 2-3 pass rushing lineman in the 2025 draft to fortify the pass rush and run defense. Wonnum (LB) only played in 8 games but his 4 sacks still ranked 2nd on the team. Over the course of a 17 games that would average to almost a double digit sack total. It would be hard for me to cut him. There's no way I'd cut Thielen. He's our most reliable WR. I'd have to say adios to Sanders, Nijman, and probably Tuttle (although his salary is really not that high). As someone pointed out, restructuring some deals could clear up more cap space. Morgan really does have his work cut out for him this off-season. https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/car/table//sort/sacks/dir/desc (2024 Panther Stats)

No! Not by a long shot!