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You seem to be in denial about what shortened Cam's career here. The 2016 shoulder injury that on a passing play, trying to make a tackle. Norv didn't prove Cam could be special in a pro system lol. Norv went 6-10 with Cam. It was the birth of the dink and dunk Cam Newton. And once teams got a little tape on that? Because all the wins were early.....that was finished. Norv/Cam finished 1-9. The literal worst stretch of Cam Newton's career.

I can find people that say all sorts of stuff. Cam could go today and rush for 1000 yards. He didn't get worn down. He was designed for it. It's what he was. He busted his shoulder up in 2016 on fluke play and couldn't throw after that. I mean his career is over. We know what happened. Cam wouldn't have been special in a pro system. He was special here. Again, he was an anomaly. A pro system totally negates what made him unique and special in the NFL. if you didn't want to go on that ride because you dislike what that ride is? Cool. Some people just like the game the way Tom Brady plays it. That's fine. Then you go get players that do that. But Ron drafted Cam. Again, it's a shame you didn't enjoy the best window in history. and you got you pro system guy in Bryce. It will be a different path. Because we will play to what he should do well. Hopefully, Frank can make a world he thrives in too.

Ron Rivera football in Carolina was about playing to Cam's strengths. And Cam Newton won rookie of the year, went to multiple Pro Bowls, and was league MVP because a coach was willing to do so. Cam Newton was a success in Carolina. That happened under Ron. The #1 overall pick worked out in the environment Ron built for him. And you remain invested on bashing Ron to the point of absurdity. Which again, is why YOU will make crazy statement like Cam only had decent/mediocre years in Carolina outside of 2015. That's the Ron fixation. Me? I got no problem acknowledging his flaws. He isn't my going to be whipping boy for all the flaws with the organization though. my first post to you in this thread simply acknowledged that Frank has never developed a #1 overall type QB investment as you were chalking him up as obviously better at it. Ron's only history of it worked out pretty well. You keep posting that I think Ron is some QB guru and technical developer. No, all that is simply hired out. Said Ron was willing to let Cam be Cam and devoted his job to that. Which was a risky move. And that's a massive reason why Cam Newton worked out. Because of what Ron was willing to do and create here. An environment for one of the unique QBs in NFL history. An anomoly at the position. And it worked out pretty good. Best window of our history. Shame you didn't enjoy more.

again, you keep going back to some argument you are manifesting.....after I called you out for claiming Cam Newton had one good season and just a bunch of decent or mediocre ones. Then you have altered you slowly altered your language about all those decent/mediocre ones because it was absurd. Ron Rivera is a defensive coach. They hire that out. Which is what Ron did. And Cam Newton is a borderline HOFer. And if hadn't blown his shoulder out in 2016 likely would have been a HOFer eventually. and yeah, you got a Ron fixation. Which means you are so fixated on bashing him you would say stuff like Cam only had decent/mediocre seasons outside of 2015 all as a means to bash Ron. Again, Fox and Ron were good enough. Easier to do worse than better than them. League history shows that. Biggest problem in Carolina was the owner/GM. Again, that's been the biggest problem from look at the pie chart moment forward. NFL is a talent league.

I mean, I have acknowledged Ron was flawed. Same with Fox. Again, flawed but good coaches vs their peers It’s a bigger convo than them. But that gets in the way of your Ron fixation. Last 2 decades. HCs. GMs. Owners. That makes your front office. Weakest link of that trio over the last 2 decades isn’t the coaches. Fox and Ron are better at their jobs than Hurney and Gettlemen.

Oh, well if THE Dan Synder said so. I’m not shorting circuiting my argument. My argument is and has always been the NFL is largely a player/talent league. You need a certain caliber HC and then it becomes about the talent. Ron and Fox were both good coaches. They checked the box. Then it became about getting them the right talent. And it’s not a science and a lot of luck comes into play, Good coaches maximize talent. Ron doesn’t. Because of Cam. A dude who broke records day one and will hold some for potentially decades. So let’s look elsewhere at some bigger names Ron had come in from elsewhere on O. 3 biggest names I can think of would be the following and they all trend the same way. Olsen - became a multi Pro Bowler in Carolina Tolbert - became a multi pro bowler in Carolina Ginn Jr - bust and who had the best window of his career in Carolina They all spent years elsewhere and looked their best here. Ron needed a better GM. Just like Fox needed one. Panthers gave them both a sportswriter who made life easy. That’s an ownership issue too. GM IMO has been THE biggest issue over the last 2 decades. And then you have to get into ownership. Both of which have been issues since the window Richardson pulled out the pie chart. Contracts, management of draft picks, and free agency. That’s where I look more so than who stood on the sidelines. Rhule excluded. He didn’t check the box. Talking Fox/Rivera.

Mr Scott and I save up for a yearly go at it.

True. You give any coach a Payton Manning and they are going to win a lot. Cam is basically a unique player in NFL history though. Because what made him a dominant QB was his running and how he ran. And everyone wants to compare him to elite passers in a league designed for them. Belichick was 5-13 with Bledsoe those first 2 seasons in New England. That’s not playing well. Tom Brady built a dynasty. He also made Belichick the best coach. And the league molded around Brady.

I mean, you don’t actually address any post made to you. Has Bill been carried by his QB? and you just ignore and paint everything in a Ron is bad context. Ron drafted a QB. Started him as a rookie. Cam grew. Got better. They won in year 3. They were going to win games as Cam and Luke developed. lot of luck in sports. But yeah, it’s a talent game. And Carolina hit a long stretch where too few did the lifting. It becomes a problem when they can’t in games. Ron isn’t winning in Washington because he doesn’t have the talent where he needs it. Like basically all coaches in the tier he lives in. It’s a talent game. And to suggest Ron has had total control in shitshow DC is a tough sell. Ron is there because he is a good coach. And the shitshow needed a man of his character to help in tough times. And he has done it all while whipping cancer. He is a bad mofo. One of the good ones in this league.

9 seasons as a NFL HC 72-74 3 winning seasons 1-2 in the playoffs NFL is about talent. It makes or breaks the majority of coaches. Especially, where you do and don't have the talent. That's Bill Belichick in the NFL when Tom Brady (the GOAT at the most important position in the NFL) isn't his starting QB. then there are the incompetent and bad coaches. Or those that aren't ready to lead a bunch of highly paid athletes. They generally stand out in any situation. Coaching at the NFL level is a people business in many aspects. Biggest problem for Carolina really post pie chart lockout talk.....has been the GM spot. Fox and Rivera were both good enough. Rhule wasn't. Frank is basically the opposite of the coin and an offensive Fox/Rivera. So hopefully he will be good enough too.

Every great coach is carried by players at the NFL level. Good ones too. Carolina's biggest issue is their talent was always thin. Better to rage about the GMs in Carolina.

Well, you at least morphed them up from mediocre/average to good.

Players and coaches get better and then get worse if they hang around long enough. And players make or break them all. Especially at the pro level. And that’s a different convo. I mean, one day it would be stupid to hire Belichick. That won’t change what he was.

Lot of disagreement is unshared definitions. I mean some who claimed a 12-4 Pro Bowl season should be viewed as a mediocre/average season.

Yeah, but numbers of who is better and worse aren’t comparable groups. One group is much larger. The worse one. it’s like talking QBs. It’s hard to find a good QB. Let alone great or HOF caliber.

Only 1/5 of the coaches in NFL history are above .500 and there are hundreds upon hundreds of them. Fox and Ron were both good coaches. Good coaches have flaws. The next tier does too. The one above that too. it’s easier to do worse. It’s old and isolated new math.

Ok. That’s basically makes Ron a long time HC. He was good. Not great. Not HOF tier. It’s easier to do worse than Ron. And that’s because what you are deeming as an average NFL coach is worse than Ron. That’s the math of it. Most coaches are worse.

Belichick isn’t a great coach without the right talent. Pete Carrol has been blunt on it too. Andy Reid’s playcalling is brilliant or flawed depending who is throwing. Ron was a good coach. Not great. Easier to do worse than better. And hell, Frank is an offensive Ron Rivera. I generally just mix it up when folks go too far. The Ron/Cam slander just goes too far into the comical.

Again, he blew out his shoulder in 2016. That was it. Now you are using all the post 2016 years to diminish what he was. That’s some strong Ron hate. Cam, one good season lol. That’s still nuts to say. Which I suspect you know but can’t admit because your Ron hate caused you to overstep into absurd.

It’s a poo move because Tampa has to spend a pointless day at least on the road. The practice day could have been later in the week and they be at home longer.

Pass protection, audibles, route running, hands…..all things that are pretty important if you got a rookie QB. And Miles’ history on that stuff is checkered. I’d like to bring in a cut vet that can step in to those basics and be reliable for Bryce. Miles’ also has a history of getting knicked up.

They literally had a highlight compilation of the Jets imploding on Hard Knocks. But the Jets are counting 11 sacks by one player and laughing it up ….it probably makes the cut simply because it existed. Not some goal to make us look bad. .

In his 17 year career, Dan Marino won more than 12 games once in his career. Essentially just decent/mediocre seasons by him in 16 of them. And has a worse playoff win% than Cam Imagine if Mr Scott wrote his Hall of Fame introduction. “What are we doing here, this guy had one great season and was a meh the rest of his time”

Rookie of the year, Pro Bowls, All Pro, MVP, Super Bowl, most successful era of franchise history…..and you saying it doesn’t work. Cam shatters the record book as a rookie - you claim that should be deemed mediocre because of wins Cam goes 12–4 or 11-5 and you claim that too is mediocre…..because….well, because…. So how many wins do you want to attach to a season before it would be acceptable to call a year better than mediocre or decent? Because you about to rewrite some narratives on a bunch QBs.

yeah, this is you trying to work your way out of silly statement. Which is why you are now adding "as far as wins" once you were called on that. And it still doesn’t work. Because that means a 12-4 Pro Bowl season is mediocre based off wins with your qualifying statement. Or 11-5 is meh. As far as wins. yeah, most NFL coaches aren't going to roll out and implement a college scheme to suit a player. Which is why Cam Newton and the Panthers were the ones to really bring that heavy into the league. How many attempted such pre-2011. And then you saw a trend because.....well, it worked so well. The Cam era was unique and impactful in many ways.