kungfoodude

11 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Oh, I did, and they weren't based in emotions either.

Granted, characterizing them that way gives you an easy out to avoid responding to them. Similar tactic to dismissing the other guy's points with "nah, you didn't really watch the games" which saves you having to debate what he said.

Strikes me as a kinda lazy way to go, but hey both elements are still back there if you feel up to trying later.

You aren't having a debate. You literally haven't said anything other than in "your eyes" he isn't better. Then some rando gave you your second data point. I mean....how about this, have you watched any of his games this year?

5 hours ago, Car123 said:

What’s fantastic about 57.6 comp pct, 11 td, 15 ints, 67.5 passer rating?

I see the issue, I am not counting his rookie season where he didn't actually play minus a few snaps of garbage time.

So by your math that would be his 4th year.

5 hours ago, Car123 said:

Trevor Lawerence is not having a better year. Also, you got the wrong color for Lawerence’s int%. You also marked green for total TO/PG when it was tied.

Well, those stats certainly disagree. He is very much having a better year.

The "tie" is not actually a tie. The cells clip and round the decimals to one significant digit even if the input is more. 

5 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

U

Has a whole thread about why I don't go by stats but apparently it was deleted. Don't know why.

As to the "other guy" he only said he's watched all the games and you didn't believe him. You now state that you "took a look at this across a WIDE variety of overall metrics and statistical groups that should give an idea about overall play and some potential aggravating factors associated with their play".

That's a lot broader claim than he made. Should i believe you?

That might sound snarky, but that's pretty much how you dismissed his argument, so hey...

And yes, I've made counter arguments. You don't accept them as valid. I don't accept your stat based argument either, but I've made an effort to explain why beyond just saying "well you're wrong because...stats".

Bottom Line: You still believe Murray will be valued and starting somewhere next year. I have my doubts, but even if he does get another shot that doesn't guarantee he's gonna be any better. I'm comfortable waiting and seeing.

Will he be better than Bryce? Don't think so, but admittedly unless he's a Panther, won't really care either.

I definitely care about Bryce, but I'm not a whole lot more optimistic on that front than I am about Murray. 

You didn't make counter arguments, ad I have pointed out several times. You got your "feels" out but that isn't a compelling argument.

8 hours ago, Basbear said:

I know Herniay, gettlegut, shittererererrer, shinkshipsefort never took a awful OL or DL and solved the problems more than one year flukes. The depth is about as good as ever too, Cam Jackson and JHH have been inactive main stays. Panthers have been protecting them for a big portion of the season, cause Im sure some team would claim them. Sam Roberts was like the 10th DLmen and failcons signed him to their roster before week 1 and he's been there since. When teams are signing your 6th string player to a 53 roster, thats a great sign.

Its against my rules to judge rookie class in their 1st season, but they've injected this team with talent and energy. 21% change with youth that by the early looks many have enough talent to help the team. Thor was getting starter snaps before his awful injury and he's not included. This group was under Dan and Tils watch, they had to add a 2nd rounder to counter that BY trade. Trade-wise they have been on the clear winning side on all 5-6 of them, the AT one looks arrestable right now. No one bats 1.000 on FA moves, they have bought something to roster. Turk had injuries and not playing at his salary-level, but he's stepping up with leadership and busting his arse in the weight room. Boom is leading too. Rico broke some all-time records and was lava hot leading the NFC in rushing without many snaps. Moehring has upped the talent level and able to play close to LOS while guarding TEs. 

They found Brycen Tremayne young perfect #4-5 WR that plays hard on STs. He a great blocker and I think he's can improve to a #3 type role given his young age and work ethic. He was the one that screwed up the WR numbers, no one had him making the team against 9 NFL WRs. The guy just busted his arse and made them roster him. Great under radar find, shame he's not gotten props. Early in the season he caught some big time balls too. 

I think for sure they have improved this team and done so with youth. If they get another 12 or so players like this 2025 class in 2026......That may build for the the first time, a team that can go to the playoff year after year. 

I am not quite that optimistic but I think this past offseason seems to be an improvement for sure. Let's hope that is true and it continues.

14 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

They should absolutely pass and go BPA.  This years class doesn’t look great.  At most take another guy on day 3.

I do think we should look at a QB in this class. It is fairly loaded with good backup QB prospects. It would be nice to tote a developmental prospect around again for a bit. Well, one that isn't a three year starter....

1 hour ago, CRA said:

got to think Evans rushing back isn't a good thing, unless this is his last hurrah (which I guess that's been hinted at) 

I would be very surprised if this wasn't it for Evans. They do have about $13 mil in void money that will hit their cap next year so they could work something out on a short term deal to lessen that. It will be interesting to see what he decides to do. 

I will certainly be glad to not see him anymore.

14 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Has Bryce?

Again though, prior career results don't mean much when we're talking about right now. 

This season, Bryce can legitimately be called a clutch performer, a leader, a smooth operator, etc.

Don't know that anyone would apply those descriptions to Murray at the moment...or even before for that matter.

I'm not counting on Bryce to continue this run, but I can't really blame anyone else much if they do. 

That's why I pointed it out because Bryce hasn't either, so it's not like that could be used an excuse for the poor winning percentage.

And yes, right now, Kyler is the better QB.

I would show it to you in the same "statistical" way that I did for Car123 but you have basically admitted that Kyler will obviously be statistically better(which is very true) and somehow that isn't relevant.

Regardless, whether eye or statistical, you have made literally no reasonable counter argument other than "there is another guy in this forum that said he saw Arizona games and he said Kyler wasn't as good" and that "he got benched." 

That's really been the bulk of your argument so far. 

As for a "clutch performer", leader and whatever in the world a "smooth operator" is.....I guess that's the PFF version of your rankings. 

1 hour ago, Car123 said:

The players I mentioned.

Okay so I took a look at this across a WIDE variety of overall metrics and statistical groups that should give an idea about overall play and some potential aggravating factors associated with their play. 

Overall, I would say this indicates by the categories that I have detailed out that Tua and Geno are clearly the guys that are having worse seasons than Bryce. I would add that I am still of the opinion that they are better overall QB's given both capability and past performances. I will definitely concede there is not a solid statistical argument for them having a better year than Bryce, to date. 

Here is the data I gathered and I have shaded the cells according to "better than" or "worse than" Bryce. In a couple of the categories, this is an inverse because I am indicating these were less aggravating situations than Bryce has had and therefore less excusable reasoning for sucking. 

Let me know if there are any questions on the data/categories/etc.

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'd like to think this season's improvement could help us out some when free agency rolls around. 

Yeah, you would hope so. I am not gonna count too many of those chickens yet. Too many questions about this front office overall. It's been so bad for so long that they are going to have to do a lot of good work to get complete faith back or even partial faith.

18 minutes ago, Car123 said:

Drew Brees’ third year wasn’t fantastic. In fact, his fifth year is statistically on par with Bryce 2025 season.

If Brees third year wasn't fantastic, I don't really know what your measurement for fantastic is but it's very likely Bryce will never achieve that in his career.

58 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I don't put Bryce any higher than that, but I don't put Murray up there either. 

And we've touched on the reason: an unfortunate tendency to choke.

You can have all the best stats in any game you play in, but if you choke at a crucial point and lose the game, guess how much those stats count for?

And I will at least admit this when it comes to Bryce: his game performances of late definitely don't reflect choking. Just the opposite, in fact.

Yes but his career winning percentages show that he almost exclusively chokes, especially when compared to Murray. Now, there is some nuance to all that, for certain but Bryce doesn't win often has been his entire career. 

It's not like Murray has been on a franchise that is known for stability either, for that matter.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Well in this context, there's actually three "guys on the internet with an opinion"

If you want more though, a quick search will tell you that Murray isn't necessarily as well thought of as you'd suggest. 

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "significantly better than Bryce Young." That gets you entry into the top 30 NFL starting QB's. Not sure if you have seen that group recently, but it's not a strong one the further down that list you go.

Murray is a Tier 3 if not Tier 4 QB in my book.

5 minutes ago, Luciu5 said:

Maybe that's the problem? Maybe if QB's had more time to figure it out more would end up successful in the end? I know a lot of youtuber channels like Brett Kollman have contemplated this and think QBs are thrown in way too early and given up on way too quickly.

As far as BY goes, I'm not sold on him or anything, more on the fence. I've seen a lot of good and bad from him. Some QBs do develop late, like Sam Darnold. Do I want to hold onto BY for 5 more years to find out? No. I do think he should be our QB for next year unless a clear and obvious upgrade were to fall into our lap, otherwise I don't see the point of changing QBs going into next year. Keep building the team and insert an upgrade at QB whenever that opportunity presents.

I am not saying there isn't truth to that but the economics and reality of the NFL are producing that. It's very hard to justify taking a guy in the 1st round, shelving him for years, having to make a contract extension and THEN hoping it all turns out okay. Not to mention, imagine that scenario after what we traded for Bryce.

One thing is for certain, the QB desperation has led to bad 1st round QB picks for 15+ years now. That ain't new. 

I think we need to decide on Bryce's future this offseason and we will have to. In my eyes, picking up the 5th year option is the "all-in" move for a two year period. That means you are committed to him in the medium term. Not the move I would personally make. 

No matter what the decision is, I have been vocal about needing to bring in multiple QB's to improve that QB room for when Bryce falters again. How about just overall improving your team depth so that when it doesn't pan out, you at least have options on the roster? I don't feel like that is too much to ask and it's a valid bet hedge. 

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Well, if you want to discount "guy on the Internet with an opinion" then I have some bad news for you

He's not exactly alone in what he's said though 

Yes, it's you and he. That is two.

9 minutes ago, Car123 said:

Drew Brees is an example. poo, Geno Smith, Alex Smith, Daniel Jones were bad for longer. 
 

Edit: Sam Danrnold was worse.

Brees(like Allen before) was already having a fantastic year by year three.

Geno Smith is valid but also remember that by year two he lost his starting job and it was 8 years until he regained it.

Alex Smith is a difficult comparison only because he started so infrequently over his first 4 seasons due to injury. It actually really wasn't until Kansas City(his 9th NFL season) that he climbed out of the "Bryce Young" tier of QB's. He actually had almost all of his NFL success post-SF with Andy Reid. He was bad for a significant length of time AND with SF for all of it. This was an exercise in patience that I think basically no one wants to see with Bryce Young and the Panthers.

Daniel Jones is a similar-ish track. Wasn't really good until about year 4 and then sort of declined for injury and play related reasons after that. Of course, one could also argue that he really only has had two "good" seasons in his 7 year NFL career including this season. Again, probably not the track we should hope for with Bryce Young.

So, I will give you the latter two. Those are good comps. But, also the length of time to turn that around would be pretty bad for us. Both of those guys also were examples of getting a big contract extension that the original team that signed it sorely regretted. 

9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

If Murray comes back, we can talk.

And dude, a guy who's watched every Arizona game gave you a whole list of things to talk about and you responded with no substance at all.

Just basically, "well you're wrong because...stats"

Oh yes, the "guy on the internet who claims to have watched all the Arizona games but also all the Carolina games" metric. 

Mr. Scot, is this the threshold you have for information now??

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Being benched and on the verge of let go may not be "statistical" but I assure you it matters. 

Okay, so when Bryce got benched last season? That counts the exact same amount, right? 

9 minutes ago, Car123 said:

The people who aren’t doomers have seen progress and are hoping he will continue to progress and become a consistently great quarterback. No one is saying this is the finished product and has played well all year.

Sure but how many genuinely successful NFL starting QB's are this bad for this long before figuring it out? Let's be honest, almost none of them get this many opportunities with their original drafted team.

1 minute ago, Car123 said:

Whichever metric you prefer.

Okay, do you just want to use that initial group of QB's that you posted or would you like to modify that any(add/subtract)?

19 minutes ago, Car123 said:

Young was great vs the Rams, Exceptional vs Atlanta. Give him his due. His passer rating vs LA was the 2nd highest in Panthers history. If Stafford had that stat line vs Carolina, Bryce haters would be chanting MVP.

But isn't that sort of what we are getting at? Having 1-3 average or better games per season is what you expect from your #2 QB, not a starting QB. Especially when most of the rest of the performances are mediocre to extremely bad. 

There are very few QB's in the NFL that can say that at the moment. That's basically less productive, Jets era Sam Darnold.

19 minutes ago, toldozer said:

He's better than Geno.

He is having a modestly better season than Geno but Geno is a better QB. I will say that Geno also leads the league in sacks. Not to mention his season has been more efficient Bryce with more TO's so far. Hence why their QB Ratings are very close(87.9 vs. 84.5).

1 minute ago, Car123 said:

How are they better than Bryce Statistically? Bryce literally has better stats than them this year.

No poo it’s his career best. How many quarterbacks have their best seasons in their first two seasons? 

Pick your metrics. Do you want basic QB metrics, per game averages, advanced metrics? I can break down whatever you like but when I try to do this as a "general" thing then people immediately say that they don't like the stats. So, pick yours and we will take a look but I am going to add other statistical context that I think it relevant, although open for debate.

23 minutes ago, Car123 said:

Josh Allen was not a very good qb his first two years. His rookie season was worse than Young’s. He’s arguably the best in the league right now. Some QBs takes longer than others to mature. Bryce is showing progress. Bryce and the rest of the players have won 6 of their last 8 games. Bryce has played well for most of that stretch. I’m very hopeful he has turned the corner and will show positive consistency.

By year 2 Allen already had eclipsed the numbers Bryce is on pace for now. By year three, he was a Pro Bowler and MVP candidate.

4 minutes ago, Car123 said:

What makes them so clearly better? Have you watched them this season?

I sure have. In most of those cases the statistical argument is extremely clear that even this season they are better than Bryce and in some cases you have QB's playing at or near the bottom end of their career results but basically being slightly worse or better than Bryce in his career best year.

The damning thing comes when you look at total body of work. Then it becomes obvious that all those QB's are a minimum of a tier above Bryce if not more than one tier above him.

I understand that we have seen blips of very good and good Bryce play this season but it's been very fleeting, similar to 2023 and 2024. Even at his "career bests" he would be on pace to have a very underwhelming season by non-Bryce standards.