kungfoodude

2 minutes ago, TD alt said:

I mean, you probably should've waited after the season is over before "going there," that way we we'd have four more games of comparison and discussion. Don't get me wrong, I occasionally go out on a limb, but Bryce just had his best game and has given people hope (which could realistically be false hope), and Shedeur just doesn't have that many games under his belt (even if he does look promising), one of them being against the Titans. No harm in being patient and letting things play out. 

If you noticed, Tepper seems to be taking a wait-and-see attitude, and he didn't mention Bryce in the clip in the other thread. I'm still highly skeptical of Bryce (and glad that Sanders has shown an ounce of success), but the reality is that we have to let things play out. The Sanders train left long ago (if it was even here). But,there are more realistic options if Bryce turns back into a frog.

I mean, did Bryce ever become a prince for more than a game or two at a time? 

I am not advocating in any way, shape or form for Sanders as a starter. If he was available for nickels and could compete in camp, I would be fine having him. I don't view him as any sort of savior and he is another guy that has some legit physical limitations and a TON of work to do getting faster and more decisive with his reads.

I can't say given sample size he is better than Bryce....yet. But that ain't much in the way of bars to clear.

Hence why I am so perplexed by the Kyler arguments here. I mean.....who in the world would even question the fact that he is a better QB than Bryce? And, once again, that doesn't make him good. It makes him better than one of the worst starting QB's in the past 5 or so years.

3 minutes ago, Diehardpanth02 said:

You ain’t wrong. But the Linebackers do help. Experience alone can make a big difference 

I was gonna say depth. The experience those guys have is minimal.

6 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's why it's important not to cherry pick specific metrics which is what you're doing here to try to make your argument that stats don't matter. But when a guy is superior across the board... I mean, you're left with a real uphill battle to make a compelling argument with concrete data to back it up. You're basically left with trying to make the argument that despite this guy performing worse in practically every measurable metric of QB play, I think he's actually a better player. That's a tough case to make.

I mean, I keep trying to get this point across but it's wild how there doesn't exist any statistic on this planet that shows Bryce to be better than Kyler nor apparently any reasonable measure at all other than, "Cause I said so."

Well, I guess if that's the way you want to make an argument, I can just never be wrong at all. Sounds pretty familiar in this modern society we have here.....

7 hours ago, mrBdawg said:

What makes you say those things about Kyler? What makes you believe Kyler sees the field better? His decision making? Where are you getting that? It’s just your opinion? Is it emotion based?

Kyler has played awful this year. I’ve watched nearly every Cardinals game due to where I’m located for work. He’s been complete garbage this year. There’s a reason he got benched, it’s because he has some good weapons and a good scheme and could do NOTHING with it. Brissett has played far better in that offense.
 

Bryce is pretty obviously the better quarterback at this point in their careers. You won’t find many to back you up on your stance outside of this website.

Both statistically and the "eye test" lean extremely heavily towards Kyler.

Kyler is extremely, extremely, EXTREMELY clearly a better overall QB than Bryce. There is literally no compelling argument to be made because no one has been able to make one other than "I don't like him!"

Is he a top 20 QB? Probably not. But compared to Bryce, he's a very good QB.

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yeah, I wouldn't call being a choker "a minor disadvantage". That's kind of a big deal

(ditto the durability issues)

Basically, Murray is inconsistent, lousy under pressure, has lingering questions about his leadership/ work ethic and yes, isn't espresso durable.

Those aren't the kinds of things that necessarily show up on a stat sheet, but they do show up.

He is a choker with a much, much higher career winning percentage, so it has been fairly minor. If we called all Bryce's bad performances "choking" he would be nearing NFL career worst levels. So, yeah, pretty minor.

Okay, but Bryce is consistently bad and extremely bad under pressure. 

Those things have showed up on the stat sheet. It's been the 0.325 career winning percentage 

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'd sign up for that. Some NFL teams probably would too but others obviously wouldn't or he'd have been drafted higher. 

I don't really know enough about his durability to say how long a career he could have, though.

Yeah, I am not saying I thought he was a strong prospect by any means. I generally didn't think too highly of him(nor this QB class overall).

He has, to date, far exceeded my expectations for him in year 1. 

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

He might get moved, but general belief right now says it's less likely. We'll see.

Why was he benched? Stories written at the time mention an injury but also cute performance issues. Brissett outperformed him early on but I haven't followed Brissett's performance much since. He is what he is.

And no. My disagreeing with you has nothing to do with emotions. I have no emotions in regard to Murray at all. My emotions regarding Bryce are mostly frustration and dread.

Yes, I think he's better than Murray right now. Their respective strengths and weaknesses are different, but overall I think Bryce is the better quarterback at this moment. Who who is better two or three years ago or even last year doesn't really mean anything and I haven't bothered with those comparisons.

Bottom Line: One guy is gonna be starting for the same team next season. The other is gonna be hoping to start somewhat else regardless of how he gets there.

Is that not reasonable?

I mean, again, based on what?

Kyler is tremendously more physically skilled, he sees the field far better, he is more efficient as a passer, his throwing mechanics are better, his decision making is better, etc, etc. He is a choker and he is brittle but those are basically the two minor advantages that Bryce has. 

Aside from that, literally nothing. 

I am asking WHY you think he is the better QB when almost every available measure that anyone could possibly use says quite the opposite?

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Hence, why smart teams look at player intelligence, maturity, work ethic, character, etc. 

It's reasonable to expect a guy who's a little older to be higher in those areas, but again Father Time is undefeated. 

You've theoretically gotta pick between a guy who may or may not take a little longer to catch on vs a guy who could catch on sooner but also may have a shorter career.

One of about a thousand reasons I'm happy I don't have to make those decisions... 

Eh, even if Shough takes 2-3 years to adjust, you should reasonably expect him to provide at least a decade of solid play IF he pans out. That puts him in his mid-late 30's which is increasingly when a lot of these guys seem to be exiting their useful years.

poo, sign me up for that. 

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Russini is one of the best sources out there, but she's far from alone in that opinion.

General belief Is that the Cardinals will try to trade him, but his contract makes it a hard sell barring an agreement to renegotiate. The more likely scenario is he'll be released.

Speculation on which teams could see him as a starter doesn't produce many results. 

I don't think there will be much trouble with the contract considering 2026 is the end of his guaranteed money and his 2026 salary(currently) would make him somewhere near the Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield area of AAV. So, bottom of the top 20 and just inside the backup, low caliber QB range of QB pay.

Like I said, don't be surprised if he gets moved. 

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Did his career winning percentage keep him from getting benched this year?

What was the reason he went to the bench? Do you even remember?

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Emotional? Dude

Lol....100% emotional, dude. Listen we disagree from time to time and I always enjoy a debate but you aren't even attempting a compelling argument at all.

Bryce is demonstrably a worse NFL QB than Kyler Murray. And that shouldn't be some brag point for Kyler. That's being compared to a guy that is probably not a top 40 roster NFL QB.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Seriously, dude?

And see above on the college thing.

I don't "like" Bryce. I don't dislike Murray. I don't think either one is NFL starter quality.

Now that said, one of them is going to be a starter next season and the other is likely to be looking for a job.

You just keep going back to an emotional argument and one not based in anything football related.

So, which one is going to be the starter and which one isn't? Also, how confident in that prediction are you?

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Not complaining college to pro. I use Chang as an example of the folly of stat driven analysis in football.

You guys know I don't put huge stock in stats.

But winning games is a bad metric? Because one has a much better career winning percentage.

So if you aren't as good statistically and you lose considerably more.....you are the better QB???

Again, please help me find any logic in this argument.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Dianna Russini has been reporting for a while now that he'll likely be let go. She (and others) don't really see many teams all that enthusiastic to give up anything for him via trade. 

And no, I don't see Murray as any sort of top performer. Honestly think he'll either be a perennial backup or out of the league within a few years. 

I am not sure why any source would be particularly useful on free agency moves during the season but I will just say, I think you will see.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Statistically speaking Timmy Chang is an NCAA legend.

Likewise, if you go by stats then It can be argued that Sam Darnold and Trevor Lawrence are both better quarterbacks than Baker Mayfield right now. Would you accept that as fact? 

Football is just too complicated and team dependent a game to rely on stats as your top evaluation tool.

College football is an extremely poor comparison.

Also, by "right now" do you mean this season? Because one of those two QB's has no statistical argument for being better than Baker Mayfield.

I don't think this is about stats, records or anything on the football field.

You just like Bryce Young and you dislike Kyler Murray. But that isn't an argument based in any football reality, it's just your personal feelings.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yes, eye test. And you and I disagree on this.

Murray will almost certainly be a free agent this offseason. Would you want the Panthers to pursue him? 

(I don't)

As a FREE AGENT, absolutely so. He would be an insanely big upgrade from Bryce. We would finally have a QB capable of performing the upper 90% of NFL starters. Price depending, obviously.

That being said, I would say the odds of Murray being a free agent are a lot smaller than you think. His odds of being moved are far higher than the odds of him being cut. They have until March 22nd to move him or his 2027 base salary is guaranteed.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Understood, and lots of rookies at various positions need almost remedial training these days.

There are guys who pick it up within a year or two though.

I think that is the difference between elite guys and JAG's(or worse). The elite guys are better able to make those adjustments quickly.

Certainly, one can argue that development can be hindered by the team/franchise but the cream does fairly consistently seem to keep rising.

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

 

Statistically perhaps...

Better quarterback? Disagree.

For whatever you think of the Panthers decision making, there's at least an argument to be made for Bryce continuing to start.

Murray is gonna be looking for work, and I seriously doubt any other team is going to offer him a starting job. 

I mean...I would love to hear any sort of logic of how Murray could possibly be construed as a worse QB than Bryce.

How are you basing it? If not statistically, winning percentage? Well, I have bad news for your argument.

So are we going, what, eye test? Well, I have even worse news than the last news.

So after that what remains? 

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Fully expect him to adjust quicker.

But he can't age slower.

That's fine but if you don't figure it out until 5-6 years into the NFL what does it matter if you came in at 22?

That is basically my point, it depends on overall development time whether you are 20 or 29.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Murray isn't, and he's likely out of a job at season's end.

Brissett? Haven't seen enough but I know he's not getting starter offers. Pretty good backup though.

Murray is not only better than Bryce but fairly significantly so.

Both of those QB's have had significantly better careers to date and are still better QB's than Bryce.

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I still want to know if a player has ever recorded both an INT and a lost fumble on the same play prior to last night. Prior to watching that play my initial reaction to such a premise would've been "*scoff* Well, that's impossible." Then Jalen Hurts was like "Hold my motherfugin' beer and watch THIS!" LOL

That was the first time in NFL history the same player has had more than one TO on a single possession.

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

The trade off for him is likely gonna be a shorter career though.

Being a 26 year old rookie in the NFL is something of an uphill climb.

I think that depends on how quickly they adjust. That wouldn't be different if he had been drafted at 22.

22 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Cardinals probably also... 

I mean both Murray and Brissett are better than Bryce.

The more banged up they are, the better for us.

We just have to capitalize on their weaknesses.

2 minutes ago, shaqattaq said:

Hadn't even thought about this yet, too busy trying to figure out if we are going to play lights out or suck @$$ on any given week...there is no in between!!

I wonder who we can bring in, if needed, that will continue in the direction we're trending with EE...which I like!

I have no idea what we would decide to do or whom would jump ship with Evero on the defensive staff.

I presume someone with heavy ties to Dave Canales.

39 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yeah, Mahomes' stat line in that last game looks atrocious but if you wanted the game a lot of those incompletions were just flat out drops including the game losing INT. That was one of the worst performances of catching the football I've ever watched at the NFL level and I watched Ted Ginn Jr. for years.

Even if you are somehow blaming Mahomes for that game, he isn't having a bad season overall by anyone but HIS standards.

I'd be floored if Bryce was at 63% completion percentage, close to 4500 yds and 34 Total TD's. 

Sign me up for that kind of failure.

10 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, give me a random team and I need to win a game....give me Tyrod. 

Versus just Bryce?

Yeah, I think most scenarios that is true. I will say that neither of those guys is "winning" many must win games at the moment.