kungfoodude

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yeah, I wouldn't call being a choker "a minor disadvantage". That's kind of a big deal

(ditto the durability issues)

Basically, Murray is inconsistent, lousy under pressure, has lingering questions about his leadership/ work ethic and yes, isn't espresso durable.

Those aren't the kinds of things that necessarily show up on a stat sheet, but they do show up.

He is a choker with a much, much higher career winning percentage, so it has been fairly minor. If we called all Bryce's bad performances "choking" he would be nearing NFL career worst levels. So, yeah, pretty minor.

Okay, but Bryce is consistently bad and extremely bad under pressure. 

Those things have showed up on the stat sheet. It's been the 0.325 career winning percentage 

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'd sign up for that. Some NFL teams probably would too but others obviously wouldn't or he'd have been drafted higher. 

I don't really know enough about his durability to say how long a career he could have, though.

Yeah, I am not saying I thought he was a strong prospect by any means. I generally didn't think too highly of him(nor this QB class overall).

He has, to date, far exceeded my expectations for him in year 1. 

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

He might get moved, but general belief right now says it's less likely. We'll see.

Why was he benched? Stories written at the time mention an injury but also cute performance issues. Brissett outperformed him early on but I haven't followed Brissett's performance much since. He is what he is.

And no. My disagreeing with you has nothing to do with emotions. I have no emotions in regard to Murray at all. My emotions regarding Bryce are mostly frustration and dread.

Yes, I think he's better than Murray right now. Their respective strengths and weaknesses are different, but overall I think Bryce is the better quarterback at this moment. Who who is better two or three years ago or even last year doesn't really mean anything and I haven't bothered with those comparisons.

Bottom Line: One guy is gonna be starting for the same team next season. The other is gonna be hoping to start somewhat else regardless of how he gets there.

Is that not reasonable?

I mean, again, based on what?

Kyler is tremendously more physically skilled, he sees the field far better, he is more efficient as a passer, his throwing mechanics are better, his decision making is better, etc, etc. He is a choker and he is brittle but those are basically the two minor advantages that Bryce has. 

Aside from that, literally nothing. 

I am asking WHY you think he is the better QB when almost every available measure that anyone could possibly use says quite the opposite?

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Hence, why smart teams look at player intelligence, maturity, work ethic, character, etc. 

It's reasonable to expect a guy who's a little older to be higher in those areas, but again Father Time is undefeated. 

You've theoretically gotta pick between a guy who may or may not take a little longer to catch on vs a guy who could catch on sooner but also may have a shorter career.

One of about a thousand reasons I'm happy I don't have to make those decisions... 

Eh, even if Shough takes 2-3 years to adjust, you should reasonably expect him to provide at least a decade of solid play IF he pans out. That puts him in his mid-late 30's which is increasingly when a lot of these guys seem to be exiting their useful years.

poo, sign me up for that. 

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Russini is one of the best sources out there, but she's far from alone in that opinion.

General belief Is that the Cardinals will try to trade him, but his contract makes it a hard sell barring an agreement to renegotiate. The more likely scenario is he'll be released.

Speculation on which teams could see him as a starter doesn't produce many results. 

I don't think there will be much trouble with the contract considering 2026 is the end of his guaranteed money and his 2026 salary(currently) would make him somewhere near the Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield area of AAV. So, bottom of the top 20 and just inside the backup, low caliber QB range of QB pay.

Like I said, don't be surprised if he gets moved. 

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Did his career winning percentage keep him from getting benched this year?

What was the reason he went to the bench? Do you even remember?

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Emotional? Dude

Lol....100% emotional, dude. Listen we disagree from time to time and I always enjoy a debate but you aren't even attempting a compelling argument at all.

Bryce is demonstrably a worse NFL QB than Kyler Murray. And that shouldn't be some brag point for Kyler. That's being compared to a guy that is probably not a top 40 roster NFL QB.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Seriously, dude?

And see above on the college thing.

I don't "like" Bryce. I don't dislike Murray. I don't think either one is NFL starter quality.

Now that said, one of them is going to be a starter next season and the other is likely to be looking for a job.

You just keep going back to an emotional argument and one not based in anything football related.

So, which one is going to be the starter and which one isn't? Also, how confident in that prediction are you?

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Not complaining college to pro. I use Chang as an example of the folly of stat driven analysis in football.

You guys know I don't put huge stock in stats.

But winning games is a bad metric? Because one has a much better career winning percentage.

So if you aren't as good statistically and you lose considerably more.....you are the better QB???

Again, please help me find any logic in this argument.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Dianna Russini has been reporting for a while now that he'll likely be let go. She (and others) don't really see many teams all that enthusiastic to give up anything for him via trade. 

And no, I don't see Murray as any sort of top performer. Honestly think he'll either be a perennial backup or out of the league within a few years. 

I am not sure why any source would be particularly useful on free agency moves during the season but I will just say, I think you will see.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Statistically speaking Timmy Chang is an NCAA legend.

Likewise, if you go by stats then It can be argued that Sam Darnold and Trevor Lawrence are both better quarterbacks than Baker Mayfield right now. Would you accept that as fact? 

Football is just too complicated and team dependent a game to rely on stats as your top evaluation tool.

College football is an extremely poor comparison.

Also, by "right now" do you mean this season? Because one of those two QB's has no statistical argument for being better than Baker Mayfield.

I don't think this is about stats, records or anything on the football field.

You just like Bryce Young and you dislike Kyler Murray. But that isn't an argument based in any football reality, it's just your personal feelings.

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yes, eye test. And you and I disagree on this.

Murray will almost certainly be a free agent this offseason. Would you want the Panthers to pursue him? 

(I don't)

As a FREE AGENT, absolutely so. He would be an insanely big upgrade from Bryce. We would finally have a QB capable of performing the upper 90% of NFL starters. Price depending, obviously.

That being said, I would say the odds of Murray being a free agent are a lot smaller than you think. His odds of being moved are far higher than the odds of him being cut. They have until March 22nd to move him or his 2027 base salary is guaranteed.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Understood, and lots of rookies at various positions need almost remedial training these days.

There are guys who pick it up within a year or two though.

I think that is the difference between elite guys and JAG's(or worse). The elite guys are better able to make those adjustments quickly.

Certainly, one can argue that development can be hindered by the team/franchise but the cream does fairly consistently seem to keep rising.

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

 

Statistically perhaps...

Better quarterback? Disagree.

For whatever you think of the Panthers decision making, there's at least an argument to be made for Bryce continuing to start.

Murray is gonna be looking for work, and I seriously doubt any other team is going to offer him a starting job. 

I mean...I would love to hear any sort of logic of how Murray could possibly be construed as a worse QB than Bryce.

How are you basing it? If not statistically, winning percentage? Well, I have bad news for your argument.

So are we going, what, eye test? Well, I have even worse news than the last news.

So after that what remains? 

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Fully expect him to adjust quicker.

But he can't age slower.

That's fine but if you don't figure it out until 5-6 years into the NFL what does it matter if you came in at 22?

That is basically my point, it depends on overall development time whether you are 20 or 29.

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

Murray isn't, and he's likely out of a job at season's end.

Brissett? Haven't seen enough but I know he's not getting starter offers. Pretty good backup though.

Murray is not only better than Bryce but fairly significantly so.

Both of those QB's have had significantly better careers to date and are still better QB's than Bryce.

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I still want to know if a player has ever recorded both an INT and a lost fumble on the same play prior to last night. Prior to watching that play my initial reaction to such a premise would've been "*scoff* Well, that's impossible." Then Jalen Hurts was like "Hold my motherfugin' beer and watch THIS!" LOL

That was the first time in NFL history the same player has had more than one TO on a single possession.

10 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

The trade off for him is likely gonna be a shorter career though.

Being a 26 year old rookie in the NFL is something of an uphill climb.

I think that depends on how quickly they adjust. That wouldn't be different if he had been drafted at 22.

22 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Cardinals probably also... 

I mean both Murray and Brissett are better than Bryce.

The more banged up they are, the better for us.

We just have to capitalize on their weaknesses.

2 minutes ago, shaqattaq said:

Hadn't even thought about this yet, too busy trying to figure out if we are going to play lights out or suck @$$ on any given week...there is no in between!!

I wonder who we can bring in, if needed, that will continue in the direction we're trending with EE...which I like!

I have no idea what we would decide to do or whom would jump ship with Evero on the defensive staff.

I presume someone with heavy ties to Dave Canales.

39 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Yeah, Mahomes' stat line in that last game looks atrocious but if you wanted the game a lot of those incompletions were just flat out drops including the game losing INT. That was one of the worst performances of catching the football I've ever watched at the NFL level and I watched Ted Ginn Jr. for years.

Even if you are somehow blaming Mahomes for that game, he isn't having a bad season overall by anyone but HIS standards.

I'd be floored if Bryce was at 63% completion percentage, close to 4500 yds and 34 Total TD's. 

Sign me up for that kind of failure.

10 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, give me a random team and I need to win a game....give me Tyrod. 

Versus just Bryce?

Yeah, I think most scenarios that is true. I will say that neither of those guys is "winning" many must win games at the moment.

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

yeah, 7 years of college football at 3 power 5 schools.   You got to think he is at least mentally ahead of a lot of rookies.

I do think that is going to be an interesting thing to track the next few drafts, the guys that stay longer in college and get more experience in different offensive system due to the portal.

I tend to believe this will produce some better QB's in terms of NFL readiness.

9 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think they would simply because Geno is ass, he's aging and clearly not the long term answer while Bryce is younger so hell why not give it a shot. 

Not saying I'd necessarily expect Bryce to be any better in that situation.

That's why I wouldn't expect them to make the move. It's, at best, lateral. It probably gets a little more difficult if you consider salary situations.

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

I mean, we talking the Panthers current starting QB vs 3rd stringers on horrible teams?  Ok.  Give Bryce the win there. 

Yeah, I mean I would think that is the determination at the moment. 

If you want to take Tyrod vs. Bryce outside of that scenario, I think it might still be a coin flip. I personally would rather have Tyrod but it is the Jets.

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

I'd add the possibility of the Raiders. Literally zero chance the Saints would swap Shough for Bryce and if they would I'd leave Bryce in N.O. on Sunday.

I don't think the Raiders actually would. Geno has been bad but we have seen how terrible Bryce is with bad pressure issues. 

Bryce would actually be a downgrade in terms of ball security there.

It's possible, though. 

8 minutes ago, jtm said:

I understand that the Panthers likely want to be very conservative with his recovery, but it is concerning that Brooks isn't doing full speed cuts after a year.  There is no rhyme or reason why some players get hurt all the time while others don't.  Also, some guys come back from injury with zero side effects and others are never the same.  I'm pulling for him, but this doesn't seem like a Thomas Davis kind of ending.  

No and Davis was an outlier. Most players don't recover from two ACL injuries.

For it to happen before his career even gets off the ground is even worse.

I do feel bad for the kid, it's a terrible thing to have a potentially promising career go this way.