Mr. Scot

Logged on to check a couple of private messages, but also wanted respond to this... I expected having patience for Fitterer to be an unpopular sentiment (said so) but I base it in a few things: - I don't think it's fair to evaluate him based on the Rhule years because of the power structure - I've long said that you have to assess coaching and GM combinations more so than individuals, and this is only year one of this particular combo - Minus one or two potential exceptions, i see a lot to like in the current front office structure that Fitterer has built But here's the biggest point... I don't trust David Tepper to know who to fire any more than I trust him to know who to hire. The guy who dumped Ron Rivera while keeping Marty Hurney only to let Hurney and Steve Drummond (basically two PR guys making football decisions) replace him with Matt Rhule has done absolutely nothing to earn anyone's trust. That's why I wouldn't want to see any decision made without a consultant like Kevin Colbert or someone similarly qualified advising the decision. Bring somebody like that in and I'd sign on to pretty much whatever suggestion they make. Letting Tepper do anything at all on his own prior to that is just too big a risk. We could easily end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater and starting a new chapter of the same story.

Not exactly, truly just long enough to respond to a couple of people. Meant for it to be in the other thread, but hey... I will address one other thing though. No, that was most assuredly not intentional, but it figures

I hadn't planned to reply in this thread at all, but with the other moved (a decision I understand) and locked (a little confused by that one) it's not possible there. Big thanks for alerting me, LP. The reason I'm responding though doesn't really have much to do with me personally. It's more of an FYI. Specifically, I'd suggest folks might wanna read this from Igo: Pertinent to The Huddle in general, I think...but judge for yourselves. For now, best wishes

Now that I've written about the team. The other question is what about me? For those who are interested, here's my story, one I'll start off by setting the record straight... Yes, I got pretty pissed off at a conversation with a mod, partially because I didn't say what I was accused of saying but also because despite requests for further discussion and clarification, the mod in question stopped responding to me at all. Others were unreachable, but the one other with whom I did still have some communication understood what I was saying (appreciated that). Mind you, I've had discussions with mods before, been willing to admit when I was wrong and able to continue without issue. I've also had (sometimes contentious) discussions with other posters, but generally found it possible to reconcile with the reasonable ones. This particular event came at a bad time though.. During the week in question, I was shuttling Lady Cowboy Fan back and forth to the emergency room on pretty much a daily basis and I was tired as hell. That, combined with the general mood of things left me ready to not just leave, but to ask that any and all previous content I had written here be erased. I've had a chance since then to reflect and consider things. Have I changed my mind? Partially. While I'm no longer requesting to have all previous content deleted, I'm also not planning to continue being a regular contributor here. The general mood of things is part of it. I get the argument that the team being bad means the fanbase is angry, but the reality is that there's a difference between angry and just plain silly. A pretty solid portion of the discussion right now is on the wrong side of that line. And yes, that includes some of the people who are responsible for moderating content. On top of that, you've got some folks who revel in things being terrible. If you've ever read "The Plague" by Albert Camus, you might remember a character by the name of Cottard. He was basically a small time thief and a nobody before the proverbial plague started but rose in prominence while it was going on. When it was over, he went back to being nobody and as a result, missed the terrible atmosphere of the plague. The Huddle certainly has its fair share of Cottards, people who've got nothing of any value or worth to say when things are good but want to be all over the place shouting from the rooftops and beating their chests when everything goes sour. (this is true in real life too, but that's a separate discussion) For the record, these things (and others) are why several others have expressed to me that they're abandoning the Huddle as well. I won't attempt to speak for them, but one of the common concerns is that when the vast majority of discussion goes no deeper than "everything sucks, fire everybody" and anyone who tries to say otherwise gets shouted down by the doom and gloomers or attacked by the Cottards, it just isn't fun. Fun and diversion were really the only reasons to come here. I never came here for the purpose of bolstering my ego (definitely came to the wrong place if that was the purpose) but rather because I enjoy discussing football, particularly Panthers football. Yes, even when the team was bad. But it's not fun right now, and it isn't really a diversion either. Nor is that diversion needed as much as it used to be. In the early part of this year I retired, and that with my own health concerns being a big part of the reason why. Previously, a lot of my posting was done while I had free time at work. Now, free time is all I have. And while Lady Cowboy Fan is still working, it still means that there's more time for us, our pets and our family. I realized over the last few weeks that I was still spending a lot of time on the Huddle just out of habit, but that was cutting into other activities which would have been time better spent. So for that reason more than anything else, I'm not going to be here on any sort of regular basis... and quite possibly not much at all. Bottom Line, for what it's worth: the reason I decided to leave in the first place isn't the reason I decided to stay gone. On a positive note, Lady Cowboy Fan and I have purchased tickets to this year's Panthers Cowboys game. It'll be the first regular season game either of us have attended, and her first chance to see her favorite team in person. We're both excited about that. There is, however, the possibility that it might not happen. Both of us have health concerns, and the prospect of spending an entire day out like that is a bit daunting for us. We're both hoping, but it's not guaranteed. Beyond that though, I'm just hoping to see the team I've cheered for since its inception to finally turn the corner. My mother died at age 61. My brother made it just a few days past his 62nd birthday before he passed. I share a similar health profile to the two of them and I'm currently 56. Meanwhile, Lady Cowboy Fan is in her late 40s s but has had a heart condition since her 20s as well as other health concerns since, many of which have manifested themselves over the past year or so. So with that in mind, and no longer being burdened with having to work 40 hours a week, I want to prioritize the right things. Talking on the internet isn't one of them. So while this may not exactly be a firm goodbye for me, it is notice of a rather significant stepping away. Not from the team of course, but from the Huddle. I bear no one any ill will in this (internet discussion isn't important enough for that). It's not an emotional decision. It's just what I feel is the right one. So for the online friends that I've made, best wishes . For the fun discussions that we've had, thanks. And to all Panthers fans on the Huddle and everywhere else, one simple message... Keep pounding.

There's a hole in the bucket Dear Liza, Dear Liza There's a hole in the bucket Dear Liza, a hole... You may or may not remember this old song (perhaps only the Sesame Street version of it if you do) but it's an exchange between dimwitted Henry and his longsuffering wife Liza about not being able to draw water from their well because there's a hole in their bucket and Henry can't figure out how to fix it. The whole conversation ends up coming full circle back to the fact that they need water to wet a sharpening stone, but of course can't get it because "there's a hole in the bucket". That song is a pretty good summary of the Panthers right now. Heaven knows there's no shortage of suggestions about how to fix the team, but I daresay most of them don't understand the full scope of things or where the real issues lie. So here's a look at how I see the "hole in the bucket", starting with... The Panthers have no run game This is where the offensive issues start. The team generally can't run for more than a yard or two at a time. You could easily and naturally attribute that to the fact that our starting guards are out with injury, though one at least is soon to return. Will that fix things? Probably not, at least not entirely, for a specific reason, and it isn't because the good guys we had last year suddenly turned to crap. No, the biggest issue is that the blocking scheme we're employing right now doesn't fit the personnel we have. The WCO type offense that Reich and Brown favor typically employs a zone blocking scheme. Generally speaking, zone blocking is better suited to smaller, more agile linemen and we've spent the last couple of years loading up on "road grader" types. Those guys fit well in the kind of E-P style attack Ben McAdoo and Steve Wilks employed. The current offense? Not so much. With that in mind, you've got two options: change the scheme or get new linemen. Getting a new offensive line obviously isn't something you can do in midseason, but even if you're thinking long-term, changing the scheme would be the easier choice. Unfortunately, Frank Reich hasn't shown any indication he's prepared to do that. This despite insisting over the offseason that he preferred scheming around personnel rather than trying to force square pegs into round holes. Until he does, I'm not sure anything much is going to change. Unfortunately, that's not all there is to it... Issues with playcalling "Okay then, if Reich is part of the problem then him giving up playcalling should help fix the offense, right?" It's not that simple. Reich didn't write the plays that we're running alone. By all reports, Thomas Brown had a significant (possibly even equal) role in coming up with our current attack. So unless one or both of them are willing to write new plays that will employ a better suited blocking scheme, changing the playcaller doesn't necessarily fix anything. Worth noting also that Brown came to us from McVay's Rams who also used a lot of WCO concepts, so he's not a sure fire cure all. That of course is only one side of things, there's also... The trouble with the passing game "What about the passing game, then?" Regardless of who's calling the plays, you also have to throw in that we don't have the kind of passing attack that can make teams back off either. Teams know that they can load up against the run because we can't consistently pass downfield. "So if we get that going then we should be able to run a balanced offense, right?" Great idea...but how? "Well, let's start with getting a deep throat receiver." Some have been encouraged by reports that the Panthers are looking to trade for a top receiver. Other tidbits I've seen though indicate that's not really happening. Whether it is or not though, while it sounds like a nice idea, again it's not that simple. Technically, that's what DJ Chark was supposed to be, but it isn't panning out that way. In fact, all attempts so far to make the long game work haven't exactly been successful. Adding in another receiver unfortunately doesn't guarantee anything. Neither have any of the other options in our corps been especially effective, which leads to the next question... Is it Bryce? "Could we bench Bryce Young for Dalton and then maybe get things going?" How'd that work out in Seattle (where we had 58 pass attempts)? I know some want to blame the passing deficiencies strictly on Bryce Young, and he may ultimately bear some blame for it, but until we can see him consistently protected it's way too early to make those judgments. Also way way too early to start talking about his being a bust. Young was certainly able to hit downfield targets in training camp...back when he wasn't constantly running for his life. But in order to have that same kind of chemistry with the receiving corps (or at least somebody other than Adam Thielen) he'd need to have enough time to actually throw downfield. He hasn't. To date, the offensive line minus Corbett and Christensen hasn't exactly given him much opportunity to scan the field and/or make his throws. In fact, he's been consistently under duress. And even when he has had time his downfield accuracy has looked subpar. So ultimately, we're right back where we started with an offensive line that isn't suited to what we're trying to do. The other side of the ball "What about the defense", someone will likely ask, "Why can't we seem to stop anyone?" I'd say that's probably mostly personnel, and more specifically injuries. We pretty much haven't fielded a healthy secondary in a single game this year so it's kind of hard to judge that area Prior to that we at least had personnel that were better suited to a 3-4 than the college defense they were running under Phil Snow (at least when healthy). Even with the patchwork secondary though, there's an argument to be made that the run defense is a bigger problem. Granted, 3-4 schemes are frequently weak against the rush anyway, but we're also missing kind of an important player there as well in Shaq Thompson. Yes, Thompson was overpaid, but that doesn't mean he was bad. And he's definitely missed. All that said, the defense is definitely not the biggest part of the losing problem. They've typically done enough, or at least close to enough if the offense did their part. One note on that point: I know it's popular to suggest that Ejiro Evero should be elevated to head coach, but I'd call that premature for a lot of reasons (some of which I'll get into shortly) Okay, soooo... "What's the quick fix then?" I've got some bad news for you... There isn't one. Players getting healthy will certainly help, but it won't fix everything. Even if the scheme can be adjusted, that'll take time. At the moment though, that doesn't even seem to be in the works. Until it is, it's hard to expect much to change. Yes, that's on Reich. No, it isn't a reason to fire him midseason or after one year. Nor is it a reason to fire Scott Fitterer. Despite what some may try to tell you, Fitterer isn't solely responsible for all the personnel decisions made over the last few years as he's a consensus guy. Has he been the guy in charge though? Yes, and as such a lightning rod, which is a big reason why firing him is a popular sentiment. And here's an unpopular one... Truly fixing this team is going to require patience. Yes, I know it's been a long time since we've won, but the current GM and coaching combo has only been in place this year. Laying the problems of previous regimes on them is neither fair nor valid. As far as the current group, seeming unwillingness to scheme around the personnel we have is my biggest issue with Frank Reich right now, not the playcalling. That, along with some of the personnel/depth chart decisions which some might argue are just as big a problem. Either way though, until we have different play designs that do fit our personnel, changing who's choosing them won't matter. As to Fitterer, as much as I know people don't want to hear this, yes it's still too soon to judge him. Case in point: he built a very solid offensive line for what McAdoo and Wilks wanted to do. Frank Reich using them incorrectly isn't his fault. Likewise, forcing Reich to start over with somebody brand new isn't the easy solution some believe it to be. More to the point though, his having spent the past few years trying to get players that fit a different scheme is a big reason why previously drafted players are gone. This is the first season that he and the rest of the front office have worked off of Frank Reich's grocery list. And heck, we haven't even had a fall off season with Adrian Wilson yet. Dan Morgan being around for a full year made a difference in free agent decisions. Wilson could have a similar effect. The reality is this: it was always going to be a transition, and possibly a rough one. Now, does that mean Fitterer is a good GM? No, it doesn't. He certainly had a good enough resumé to be hired as one and I've liked some of what he's done (especially in the front office building department) but the jury's still out. And despite the feverishly bloodthirsty ranting of some, It also hasn't been proven that he's a bad one. As infuriating as it might sound, his grade is still "incomplete". But again, some are still demanding a sacrifice... Candidates to fall on the sword "So then who should be fired?" Honestly, If we're smart, nobody just yet. I've long said "talk to me next year". And yes, I'm still saying it. Far too many fans have a "lottery ticket' mentality when it comes to football. By that, I mean that if the team as constructed isn't an "instant winner", you automatically "buy another ticket" in the form of new players, a new coach or a new GM. Sometimes that's ultimately the right call, but too many people come to that conclusion much too quickly. Again, I know the villagers want blood, but appeasing the riotous crowd with a scapegoat is rarely the smart play. Even if you do insist that someone must be sacrificed though, here's something else to consider... The decision maker Who's making that call? Obviously, there's not a lot of faith in David Tepper (nor should there be). That's why the route of just having him throw somebody on the altar isn't a smart one. Plenty of people are saying that he doesn't know who to hire. Maybe he doesn't, but given that what makes you think he knows who to fire? Remember when Tepper fired Ron Rivera over Marty Hurney and then let Marty and Steve Drummond lead the search for his successor? Who did that search lead us to? You really want to put that in his hands again? I sure don't. "Well, what, then?" Before I would support any kind of change to the football operation - firing, hiring, reassignment or whatever - Tepper needs to stop trusting himself and bring in someone who knows what they're doing. The ideal person for that has been available for a while now in the form of Kevin Colbert. Bringing in a guy like Colbert as a team president and then letting him evaluate the operation from top to bottom would make way more sense than just trusting David Tepper to burn it all down and build it back up again. Even just burning it all down isn't something you can trust Tepper to do because there's the huge risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And unfortunately, that's something the bloodthirsty crowd doesn't seem to understand. They really should, especially given that we have good pieces like Adrian Wilson in place right now and no guarantee that a new GM would keep them around. And if you think Tepper would just promote the right person from within, I'd remind you who it is we're talking about making that decision, i.e. that guy who you're pissed at for making all the wrong ones in the past. So here's my take on what to do... First off, ride out this season without any changes, not even to lower level assistants. Heck, who knows what the season will look like in December? If you assume it'll still look the same as right now, may very well be wrong. The full story isn't told yet, and making decisions before it is would be premature. But once those decisions are ready to be made, you have to have someone you trust making them. That's why you bring in a guy like Colbert (or someone like him) and let them evaluate everything. If something like that doesn't happen, then it all likelihood we're just spinning our wheels. Bottom Line: There's a hole in the bucket Dear Liza (a really big one, in fact) but before you let Dear Henry get to work on patching it, you need to find somebody who can tell him how to do it right. Until then, the next verses to the song will stay just as circular as they are now.

I'd need something more than just performance to stop cheering for the Panthers. The effort to go after Deshaun Watson was a nudge in that direction. Giving up on The Huddle is another story

Also hoping he can play.

Pretty much. We've seen almost this exact take more than once in this thread.

Waaaayyy too early... I can't get on board with appealing to the team's history either since we're just starting out with a new braintrust. Might be more trauma than panic, but either way it's more emotion than logic.

From what we've seen since, it appears that came from Matt Rhule. He was trying to insert his Brand/Process crap in place of what was already here.

Dom's association with Sam Mills goes back further than just their time with the Panthers. He knew Mills from his USFL days and had even served as a defensive assistant with the Saints before taking the Steelers DC job that eventually lead to getting the Panthers head coach position. So yeah, we've definitely got people that understand what it was all about.

It's actually a pretty common thing for coaches of rookie quarterbacks to "dumb down" the attack so that the rookie doesn't have to think too much. A lot of times, it leaves rookies looking like they've got a greater command of the offense then you might know because they aren't being asked to do all that much. Like say, audible out of a pre-snap read. For the record, Young did that three or four times on Monday night.

I don't think he is. In discussions I've had with him, he doesn't strike me as that kind of character. I think he just doesn't know. Maybe too young to remember.

Trust me. There's a way.

Uuuhhh...you sure about that?

I've mentioned this in a couple of other places.... You've got some people who panic at the first sign of tough times whether it's warranted or not. You've got others who love the attention they get when things are bad more than they actually do cheering for the team. And then there's some who will continuously predict that everything's going to be bad whether it actually is or not, and then when they're right one time in ten years proclaim themselves geniuses. All of these groups include people who love to be able to say "see, I said it first" if things continue to be bad. Said folks will typically disappear if things actually get better, or sometimes come back and claim they were just trolling. Bottom line of course is devotion to ego and being able to say "I told you so". None of these people are ever much fun to discuss football with, but they fit the modern sports talk landscape very well

If you actually think there's more rational reaction than emotional overreaction on the board right now, you must be reading different threats than I am.

There's also a "we don't know what this is yet" camp. (that's where my membership is) I referenced a literary character by the name of Cottard in another thread. It's pretty clear to me we've got a few of those here.

To quote Achmed the Dead Terrorist, I'd kill you for a Klondike bar. Thing is though, I'm just not a "hot take" guy. I've watched out football seasons to know that what you think you know early on often proves very very wrong. That's why I'm cautious.

To be fair, a good number of people went into "full meltdown" mode in preseason.

Emotion is the enemy of logic. And right now, emotion is the rule.

You sure about that? I said before the season ever started that I wasn't gonna be ready to talk about how good or bad we really were until around midseason. That's true any year honestly, but even more true in a year when you're starting with a new staff.

Gun to my head, I get shot.

I was starting to wonder where the "24 hour rule" went

The previously discussed 24-hour rule doesn't really seem to be applying this week.