grimesgoat

No one has tried to address the initial question. Just more whining. Here are some possible reasons to be optimistic... We cleaned out the stench of the prior coaching regime. The current group has a history of producing in the NFL. We have a brand new QB that may develop into a franchise QB. I'm willing to give him more than 2 games before passing judgment. I guess I'm the only one that did not consider him a finished product after 2 years of college. 5 of the top 6 most important positions in football are all accounted for - QB, LT, DT, DE, CB, (WR). Its a really good group when all are healthy and playing (assuming QB develops into something). We are missing a #1 WR however I am willing to wait and see if Mingo can develop into that guy. I believe that is the expectation. He is physically that guy and has been compared to AJ Brown. Maybe we can reassess after a few more games, but to give up now seems incredibly short-sighted. With key positions accounted for, we can use our draft picks on complimentary pieces. Fortunately we still have picks 2,3,4,5,5,6 available for a CB, G, RB, and LB. These are the rounds to get these guys. We have been hamstrung with huge dead money, restricting our options in free agency. Dead money ranks since 2021 were 30th, 23rd, and 29th highest. We are dedicating 42m of our cap to 3 guys who are not playing for us (DJ, CMC, Chosen). Situation should be much improved next year. The 3 teams in our division are nothing special. Carr, Ridder, and Baker do not frighten me. I believe Young will eventually be better. While the last 5 years have been rough for us fans, this is what a slow rebuild looks like. 3 years ago, we had a stinky coach, no lockdown corner, no franchise LT, no hope at WR, an all-pro expensive RB that was always hurt, and 2 very young and developing D-linemen. We are in significantly better shape today.

Since no one has attempted to identify what Fitterer has done right after 9 pages, I'll throw a couple of things out there. 1. The draft picks from 2021 and 2022 were "developed" with sub-par coaching. No draftee is a completed work but a work in process. Let's see what a better set of coaches can mold with this clay. 2. Way too early to judge 2023 draftees. 3 are already starting and the other 2 may develop into something. 3. He is drafting studs in the first round. We've seen what Horn and Icky can do and Young was the consensus best QB out there. Blaming Fitterer for Horn's injuries is lame - he was never hurt in college. 4. Free agency - He has been hamstrung with huge dead cap hits since he got here. 54m in 2021 (3rd highest), 52m in 2022 (7th highest), and 55m in 2023 (5th highest). Hard to make a lot of splash signings with 30% of the cap not available. While he has had a few stinkers (elf and erving), he has signed some solid players that have played well: Luvu, Abdullah, Reddick, Foreman, Corbett, Woods, Hekker, Bozeman, Ionidas. Jury is out on this year's crop but everyone seemed to like Bell, Tuttle, Dalton, Sanders, Hurst, Williams, Thielen, Chark, Grugier-Hill, Rowe, Byrd, and extending Bozeman. Maybe we should wait for more than 1 game before declaring the 2023 free agent class a disaster. It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) I think he significantly upgraded the coaching staff around here. He'll live and die with how successful they are. 5. Trades - obviously a mixed bag here. He got good value for CMC. He also got a 7th for Little, and 6th for Bridgewater, a 5th for Daley, and 6th and 7th for Anderson, 7th for Gonzalez - all players that most on here were just wanting to cut. Gilmore for a 6th and Mayfield for a 5th were good dice rolls. Jury is out on Shenault and Smith-Marsette trades. Darnold and Corral were bad values, but I suspect Mr. Scot is right that these moves were probably driven by Rhule. 6. Finally the trade that wasn't. Trading your best defensive player for a couple of future firsts that looked to be in the 20's did not seem like good value to Fitt. I wanted him to pull the trigger, but I certainly understand why he didn't. I'm ok with a fair contract - a bird in the hand etc...

my guessws Offense: cut Sullivan. If they find some OL help, they move TMJ to PUP. I think that is why they traded for WR. Defense: Cut Ray, Haynes to PUP. If they can find a vet CB, they may swap him with Robinson and Robinson to practice squad.

I don't know about Atlanta, but it looks like Cleveland let him go because he was due to make 13 mil. If he cost 3 mil and they let him go, I'd be a little worried. Assuming he's no more then 3-5 mil with nothing guaranteed, I believe we are safe.

I can't be upset about being tier 3 because I don't know how many tiers there are. 3, 5, 30? If there are 30 tiers, I'm feeling pretty good. Worse case: 7-10. Best case 11-6. Likely: 9-8. I'll take it. Young's second year should be the start of a long period of good times and inflated expectations.

If Mayer or Porter somehow drop to 39, I'm grabbing one. Or Avila - probably the best G in the draft. Too much talent to pass on. Otherwise I try to move back 8-10 spots because what we need (CB/Edge) is pretty deep. I think one of Ojulari, Hall, Sanders, or White will still be there around 50. Any would be great. My favorite is Sanders. Then with the extra draft capital plus 93, you could probably get back to around 72-76, which is a good place to grab a corner. I think Zavala lasts to our 4th.

Every teams' top 45 players are different. If pick 39 rolls around and there are still 8-10 guys left, I hope he moves back a little. A draft class of 6 would be ideal considering who is already on the roster this year. The key is don't fall in love with one particular guy. Trade back in the second enough to get a 2024 3rd.

Predictions: 1. QB (Young) 37-45. LB/Edge. Hopefully a small trade back and pick up an extra 5th (GB and NE are options). Ojulari, Sanders, McDonald, Campbell (if they believe Luvu can move outside), Herbig, Hall, etc. 93. CB. Preferences are Brents, Mitchell, Rush. May have to move up a little here. 114. G Zavala, Wypler, etc. 116-117. DL if we trade back in second. Harrison, Carter, Young could all be there. 132. RB (Evans, Miller) 145. WR/TE

Drew Sanders has been my guy for a while at 39. He's getting a lot of buzz lately. May be a day 1 guy.

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Well done. I took a similar approach and looked at who is likely locked in on the 53 after free agency, then figuring out where there may be openings. We have 6 picks in the top 5 rounds so all should be expected to make the team. On offense, there are probably 20 guys that, barring injury, will likely be on the team. Not going to list them, but our 21-25 spots are QB, WR, TE (unless you like Ricci), RB (unless you like Blackshear), and G. I think we go QB in the first, WR in the 4th, RB in the 4th, and G in the 5th. On defense, there are 23 guys that seem locked in. The 24th and 25th guys that might be on the bubble are Roy and STO. I think CB is a huge need and if we can get a startable guy in the 3rd, that will be the play. We also need a pass rusher, so it would not surprise me to see one of the guys MHS mentioned go to us in the second - but my hope is Drew Sanders at 39. If we want to take advantage of this strong TE class, I could see us try to move Chinn. I don't really want to, as I love Chinn, but he's due to get paid and I'm struggling to see where he fits. The timing might be right. Likewise, I don't really see where YGM fits, although unlike MHS, I think he is a good player when healthy. Corral is also be a possible trade option if we are looking to upgrade and develop another DT. We may be able to turn him into a 5th and replace Roy. I'm really looking forward to another wheeling dealing Fitterer draft.

We're going in circles here, so this will be my last. I do not know what the price will be to move back a spot. That will depend on how in love the Panthers are in one guy vs. the other and how much Houston wants a particular guy. Houston may be perfectly fine taking Stroud after seeing us take Young. But if Houston feels strongly about one or the other, then they will call us to see what the price is. If we are willing to move back, it does not mean we are settling for the second best guy, or that we will not get our first choice, whoever that is. It simply means we are ok with either guy plus the compensation we get from Houston. Its not emotional. Its just a transaction. And who knows, we may still end up with our favorite guy plus some extra compensation. And the fact we traded so much to get to 1 is irrelevant here. That was simply the price to get one of the top two guys. Trading to 2 was out of the question. We knew we wanted one of Young or Stroud so trading to 1 was the only option we had. Doesn't mean we liked one more than other, it was simply our only option to enter the game. You are one of my favorite posters on this site, but I can't keep posting the same poo over and over. If we end up moving back, maybe we can continue this conversation. Cheers.

Please understand, I am no advocating here. And I don't know who we are favoring, although it seems we are somewhat split internally at this time. Houston may not feel the same. They may see Young as the clear #1 for their vision and don't want anything to do with Stroud. If they feel this way - I could see them making an offer in a week or two. In fact, I'd be surprised if they didn't. They could try to lowball us with a 3rd or something, who knows. But if they do not make any offer, then they are either sure we're taking Stroud or don't care either way (or they are incompetent). But if Houston calls and offers me enough to get me comfortable with either guy, I could see us pulling the trigger and moving back a spot.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you are still missing my point. Everyone has their price. That fact we are willing to trade back does not mean we like Stroud the best. It just means we are ok with Stroud along with whatever compensation Houston is willing to give up. Even if we like Young better than Stroud, we may decide we like Stroud + #12 even better.

Doesn't matter as long as Houston doesn't know who we want. If they are worried we are leaning Bryce, then they will need to pay a price to not have to worry about that anymore. Its not nearly as complicated as people seem to think.

I'll try this once more. They do not know who we like most. We do not know who they like most. That is irrelevant. No one has to tell the other anything. The question is - will the compensation from Houston be enough for the Panthers to say - fug it, we'll take the one they don't. There is no trickery here. If we were truly 50/50, we may be willing to take Houston's 2nd. If we were leaning heavily one way or the other, we may insist on Houston's other first or a first next year. Point is, there may be a price where we would be ok with either guy.

False. Both teams might like the same guy best. They don't know who we like and we don't know who they like. All we know is that at the right price we can be happy with either. Houston may want to roll the dice and hope we don't pick their guy. But if they want peace of mind, they will need to pay for it.

Anyone can change their mind if the price is right. Panthers should take the call and simply ask Houston to make an offer. If the offer makes the Panthers comfortable taking QB 1b, than accept the offer. Houston may just want peace of mind and are willing to pay for it. No mind games are necessary.

If its 55/45, then I'm probably sticking with my #1. But if its 51/49 then I'm saying "make me an offer". Texans may not want to guess who we like best or risk we pick their guy. If the cost is 33, then they may think the peace of mind is worth it. A nice wr may be sitting there at 33 that can grow with our new QB, and could help our new "2nd best" QB be even more successful.

Who says we would get the second best qb at 2? No two nfl team boards are alike. The fact that 50% like Young and 50% like Stroud is a solid clue. The panthers may have these guys ranked the same. Why not get a little extra compensation if available?

Dude - for some reason I can't stop laughing at this...

My point - Panthers have until May 1 to decide if they wish to pick up his 5th year option of 11m. Based on his work so far, I doubt they do so. That plus Jackson's 14m cap hit (vs. 10m in savings from a cut) means we may really need a cb sooner rather than later. They are not cheap on the open market.

I think the price tag for Jackson and Henderson will be too high in 2024. CB is a significant need. I would grab one no later than our first 4th.

I suspect they like both Young and Stroud. Question is, what do they like better...Young by himself or Stroud plus the #12 pick. That #12 pick could replace the #1 WR we just lost. Or maybe Houston gives their 2024 #1 as was rumored they offered Chicago. Even with Young, they are probably picking in the top 5 again. We could possibly snag Marvin Harrison next year with that high pick. Lots to think about.