mountainpantherfan2

DJ Johnson reminds me a lot of James Harrison. Harrison was 24 his rookie season. Both have similar builds and skill sets. And seem to have that same nasty, mean steak in them. 
 

I also think Johnson’s ability to play inside or out at LB and possibly at times shift up to the lines makes him very versatile. 

My biggest issue with Young is that he reminds me a lot of RG3. The good and the bad.  No way Young is able to stay healthy. Smaller framed QBs can stay relatively more healthy in the NFL if they aren’t a mobile QB. But as soon as they start making plays with their legs they open themselves up to injury. And once that knee or ACL goes, they are never the same. See RG3. 
 

A QB can have the physical and mental tools and the “it” factor but if they can’t stay healthy then it doesn’t matter. 
 

If the Panthers aren’t interested in Lamar Jackson because of his injury history (not 100% if that is the reason or not) then I would find it hard to believe they would be interested in Young. 

1 hour ago, onmyown said:

How do you know that? JR paid multiple millions that included non disclosures to several people and sold it when his own ‘investigation’ was laughed at. So the details didn’t need to come out. 

Thus, we don’t really know what happened or the full extent of it. Generally small things don’t cost millions though.

Implicating we do know the full details of the JR fiasco and how ‘bad’ it was perpetuates the idea that his money bought your opinion and illusion of innocence. Proof being your statement, which is very sad. 

Fact is no one knows. 

I believe both are pieces of poo with equal amount of slime. Difference is simply JR is smarter than Synder. Unlike Synder, JR didn’t fight past a certain point, timed and hid things well.

Despite the unknowns, I suppose I logical conclude when a stingy rich man pays millions in non disclosures and sells his prized life’s work there is a lot of shadiness going on.

It is quite strange to me people ignore those facts, and find it sensible to downgrade the severity because people were paid off to not share the details.

Money really does rule all.

I’ve said this before but I believe the coverup had more to do with his mental and congenital regression. We will probably never know if true but I suspect JR was and is suffering some form of dementia. There’s even been some comments by past players and coaches/personnel to suggest a major change in personality around 2013/2014. 
 

And ultimately the forced sell of the team had way more to do with his worsening mental state and having to personally come to terms with the fact he couldn’t be the owner anymore. 

The more I look at QB history especially over the last 20 years I feel like signing Jacoby Brissett and drafting Tanner McKee in the 2nd/3rd might be the way this coaching staff and front office goes. 

2 hours ago, CPantherKing said:

Incorrect. Not having a top college tier QB does not ALMOST GUARANTEE you won't win a SB.

There have been 11 QBs to win a SB in the last 20 seasons. You like your sample cutoff? Keeps Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, John Elway, and Brett Favre out of your sample. Wouldn't want to consider a 1st round QB that failed for the team that drafted him to become a journeyman, and a 1st round QB who took more than a decade to win a SB at the age of 37. Too far back? Even with this being left out, your theory does not hold for drafting 1st round QB to rebuild a team with a new HC.

Mahomes, Stafford, Brady, Foles, P.Manning, Wilson, Flacco, E.Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Roethlisberger.

So, you anchor your theory on 2 Mannings and 3 established coaches/franchises (Cowher/Maddox; Reid/Smith), (Sherman/Favre) inserting 1st round QBs in place of failed 1st round QBs and a HoF 38 year old 2nd round QB.

Panthers can't use a 1st round QB to insert like the Chiefs, Steelers, or Packers. There is no Manning available until 2027. Stafford failed for the team/coach that drafted him.

I see ONE 1st round QB on this list that has been drafted since 2010 and has won the SB for the team that drafted them. I see 2 QBs drafted outside the 1st round on this list. Mahomes was inserted into a team with a championship foundation, Wilson elevated a losing team in a rebuild to a SB contender, and Foles was signed to elevate a losing franchise during a rebuild to a SB championship.

The Panthers are in the Seahawks and Eagles rebuild mode. They are no where near the Chiefs contender mode.

If we just look at winning a SB with the team/coach that drafted them for a rebuilding team, then you have Flacco in 5 years and Wilson in 2 years as your only QBs. You can also include E.Manning in 4 years and Brady in 2 years if you allow teams who have been to the SB and have carry over players for a retooling under a new coach rather than a rebuild. 

What has happened to all the 1st round QBs over the past 15 seasons anchoring their teams rebuild? Doesn't seem to work too well using your own sample. What 1st round picks have actually helped build their team to the SB? It isn't QBs.

Also, over this same period of time the losing SB QBs are 6 1st rounders and 6 non-1st rounders.

Non-1st round QBs get to the SB in 4.2 seasons (6th round to undrafted; 3.5 seasons to SB; 2nd/3rd round QBs; 4.7 seasons to SB). 1st round QBs get to the SB in 5.4 seasons. (1st round QBs that were not drafted by a SB contending team; 6.2 seasons to SB)

Delhomme 3, Hasselbeck 7, Warner 2, Kaepernick 2, Garoppolo 6, Hurts 3, Brady 2, Brees 9, Wilson 2, Foles 6. (10 with 5 winners) NONE of these QBs were inserted into SB contending teams.

McNabb 6, Grossman 4, Newton 5, Ryan 9, Goff 3, Burrow 2, Roethlisberger 1, P.Manning 9, E.Manning 4, Rodgers 6, Flacco 5, Mahomes 3, Stafford 13. (13 with 7 winners) 5 of these QBs were inserted into SB contending teams. 

Considering 1st rounders get more franchise starting opportunities and several years/coaches to fail, looks even to me. No advantage to going with a 1st round QB. There has been no domination by 1st round QBs outside of getting coaches fired, racking up losing seasons, wasting draft capital and taking longer to win games/playoffs/SBs. Since 2001, 5 SBs have had no 1st round QB starting, 4 SBs have had 2 1st round starting QBs, and 13 SBs have been split. In the split SBs, 1st round QBs are 7-6. There have been 3 consecutive SBs without a 1st round QB. There has never been consecutive SBs this century with all 1st round QBs. You have to go back to the Cowboys-Bills in the early 90s for this RARE event. All 1st round QB SBs: 1972 - 1985-1986-1987 - 1992-1993 - 2000 - 2006 - 2010 - 2015 - 2021. All NO 1st round QB SBs: 1967 - 1976 - 1981-1982 - 1988 - 2001-2002-2003 - 2014 - 2017.

Am I overlooking something that would favor 1st round draft picks? I don't think so.

85% of all QBs regardless of round make it to the playoffs. All they need is a coach who believes in them enough to give them an opportunity. When it comes to QBs that win in the playoffs, 1st round QBs have a slight edge, but nothing significant enough to replace the draft capital needed for a 1st round DT, WR, or LB. The rare top combine QB with a pro sports pedigree is the only exception I would make.

68 1st round picks since 2000 have been SB champions over the last 10 SBs. Only 2 are QBs, and only 1 has won it for the the team that drafted the QB. 11 are LBs, 10 are WRs, and 9 are DTs. In the last 10 1st rounds, there have been 30 QBs, 28 DTs, 42 WRs, and 40 LBs taken.

QB: 2/30; 6.7% (Need 0) 4 of 10 SB teams had 1st round QBs.

DT: 9/28; 32.1% (Need 2) 8 of 10 SB teams had a 1st round DT. 3 of 10 SB teams had 2 1st round DTs.

WR: 10/42; 23.8% (Need 1) 9 of 10 SB teams had a 1st round WR. 1 of 10 teams had 2 1st round WRs.

LB: 11/40; 27.5% (Need 3) 8 of 10 SB teams have a 1st round LB. 6 of 10 teams have 2 1st round LBs.

SB teams have carried 6 to 10 1st round players on their roster with the average being 8. I'd want to see 8 to 9 1st round picks consisting of 2 DTs, 1 WR, 3 LBs, 2 BPA from WR/DE/CB. A reserve 1st round pick for that rare 1st round projected pedigree QB, or a complete pass and run blocking pro ready LT, which may only happen 1 to 2 times in a decade.

There is a long list of players I would want on the roster as a 1st rounder over all those QBs, and I can only have 6 to 9 of that long list. In the past 20 years, the only QBs I'd value over many of these players in the first round were Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, and Patrick Mahomes. I enjoyed watching Cam Newton, but I would not have picked him as the QB in that 2011 rebuild.

This 1st round QB myth kills entire franchises. It is the worst position lottery to play in the NFL, and you either know how to pick a QB like Bill Walsh (who never drafted a 1st round QB) or you hope you get really lucky when there is definitely a better use of 1st round picks for a championship team.

Legit the best write up I’ve seen on the QB search.  Amazing job!!! 

5 hours ago, stbugs said:

Restructuring is taking the salaries already in place in the contract and converting them to bonuses. It can kick more cap into the future.

Tepper’s wealth makes no difference here because you are paying the player the same amount that year, just a few months earlier. It’s something pretty much every owner can do.

Tepper is still dealing with the same cap space every year as other owners. Where he can use is wealth is non cap spending like new practice facilities and coach salaries.

@Jackie Lee brings up another possibility of paying way more up front as a bonus to get a discount. Let’s be honest, there is no player that’s saying, sure I’ll take less per year than the guy who just signed if you give me more up front. The guaranteed money keeps growing by itself and the couple percent you might get off is likely completely overwhelmed by the Teddy/Sam cost of realizing that you way overpaid the guy with too much guaranteed money.

The guaranteed money is the issue and why cash in hand does make a difference. Restructuring isn’t just about converting salary into bonuses. It’s also about converting  non guaranteed money into guaranteed money. 
 
The NFL’s funding rule requires owners to basically escrow all guaranteed money in contracts.  And players will take less guaranteed money than non guaranteed money.  But agents care more about total contract than guaranteed money because it makes them look better. 
 

This is where the restructuring game comes into play.  If you have a high performing player on a big contract, that contract typically has most of the guaranteed money in the signing bonus and the first 1-2 years of the contract. The team can then restructure the contract, convert some of the future salary into a bonus in exchange for more guaranteed money in the later years.  Which requires cash in hand for the escrow account.

Not all owners have that cash in hand. 

6 minutes ago, panther4life said:

Bottom line is this, whether you think we have done drafting well in the first or you think we haven’t there’s no harm in trading 2 additional first in an attempt to go land a franchise QB. If we mismanage our first round picks anyway, then who cares if we give a couple away to go get our number 1 choice at QB. Or if you think we’ve done excellent at drafting in the first and it still leaves us as a bottom 5 team, then you should also see the value in letting a couple go to get a top QB.

Why save 2 first and take the 3rd-4th option left at QB unless you think this is a super deep class where multiple QB’s have a shot at becoming the guy we need. I suppose that’s possible but I’m ready to hedge out bets and not settle, let’s go get the best!

I completely get what you are wanting and why. But I think you also have to be smart about it. If you can draft a franchise QB, who cares about those future draft picks, right?  But what if the QB you draft ends up not being the franchise QB you hoped he would be?

There has only been 10 times a team has traded up and drafted a QB in the top 5 picks. None of those 10 have ever won a Super Bowl. Only 1 has ever played in a Super Bowl.  Only 2 played for the team that drafted them more than 5 seasons. 
 

From my armchair perspective, it’s much better to trade up to draft a QB that slides down in the draft rather than trade up into the top 5 for one.  The Bears in 2017 traded up to the 2nd overall pick to draft Mitchell Trubisky.  The Chiefs traded up to the 10th pick for Patrick Mahomes and the Texans traded up to the 12th pick for Deshaun Watson.  The fact that any team is willing to trade away a pick in the top 5 instead of using it on a QB should tell you all you need to know.

I agree we need to find our QB of the future. I’m just not sold trading into the top 5 is the solution. 
 

6 minutes ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

I disagree. This team is built for a rookie or young QB, could be Corral, but probably not. 
There are no BIG QB to trade for this off-season. 
Rodgers isn’t coming here and Lamar is definitely not coming here. 
Panthers are between a rock and a hard place. 
Sign a 30 year old QB to a big contract and hope that we can revive his career, deja vu. 
Move up in the draft for a QB or take a project QB at 9. 
Sign a bridge QB for this year and ask the fans to be patience because 2023 will be rough QB-wise. 
New staff has a lot of hard questions to answer of the next few months. Glad I am not them. 



 

Bridge QB while they develop a QB?  I think it’s important to note that both Reich and Fitterer won Super Bowls with 3rd Round QB’s.  I would not discount Corral and/or another QB drafted this year in the 2nd or 3rd round paired with a vet QB that knows Reich’s system. 
 

Jacoby Brissett played for Reich in Indy and will be a Free Agent. Two other names to possibly keep an eye on especially if they get cut are Nick Foles and Carson Wentz. None of these would be seen as an answer for QB1 but they would all know Reich’s system and more importantly able to help with developing a young/rookie QB of the future. 

5 hours ago, WOW!! said:

Just saying that’s a lot of criteria to make a point.. When in reality depending on the situation trading up has worked for teams and is a necessity when you are convinced that player is a difference maker..

Completely agree.  My point was to say trading into the top 5 for a QB isn’t the sure fire way to win a Super Bowl the way some seem to feel it is. Plenty of teams have found success throughout the draft and through free agency and trades. 
 

 Another note to consider is the influences on Fitterer and Reich. Seattle was able to get to three Super Bowls and win one in the last 20 years with a 6th round and 3rd round QB.  Philadelphia won a Super Bowl with a 3rd round QB and just got to another Super Bowl with a 2nd round QB. 
 

Of course that doesn’t mean that is the only option. But I don’t think Fitterer and Reich will be locked in on only looking at QBs in the top 5 of the draft. 

4 hours ago, WOW!! said:

Mahomes was a QB traded up for… Just saying..

Yes he was. But not a trade into the top 5.  What the Chiefs gave up for that pick was really not that much. They had the 27th pick that year. They traded that with a 3rd rounder and their 2018 first round pick to move up.

That’s reasonable. Compare that to what other teams have traded to move up into the top 5 for a QB. 

What’s the ultimate goal? Winning a Super Bowl? If yes then you don’t trade up for a QB. In the last 20 years only 5 times has the winning QB of the Super Bowl been a draft pick above the 9th pick. Peyton Manning(2), Eli Manning(2) and Matthew Stafford. 
 

If you want to go further, only 12 of the 40 starting QBs in the last 20 Super Bowls have been drafted before the 9th pick. 
 

Some of the Super Bowl winning QBs drafted in the first round but after the 9th pick?  Big Ben (11th), Mahomes (10th), Rodgers (24th) and Joe Flacco (18th).  The rest were all drafted after the first round. 
 

There’s a lot of luck in finding a franchise, Super Bowling winning QB. But trading up into the top five has not given any team in the last 20 years a Super Bowl victory. 

Why do people think Cam needs to have "better" weapons? I think and hope Cam is a franchise QB, who makes ordinary players look better. If he can't do that then IMO he isn't worth a franchise QB level contract.

Signing guys to help field position (Ginn) and improve the line (Oher) is what Cam needs much more than a over paid WR that wasn't coveted enough by his old team to keep around.

How about instead of buying Cam a high priced #2 WR, let Cam show why he's worth the big contract by turning Brown into the next overpaid FA.

Hurney's claim to fame was his ability to work the cap and hitting on 1st round picks. Notice I said work the cap not manage it. This ultimately lead to his downfall. To much pushing money around and lead it blew up in his face.

While his track record after the 1st round was close to horrible, I can't think of another GM is recent time that was able to get it right that often and for that long in the 1st. Of course DG has added 2 more years to that streak which makes me wonder how much of that was Hurney and how much was it the scouts.

Tarheel can you name a QB that has done this (left a team over roster moves). I'm not saying it hasn't happened but I can't think of one.