MasterAwesome

1 hour ago, Icege said:

I was explicitly told that CJ would elevate DJ...

Poor CJS4LIFE

6 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Just pointed out that Coleman was far more productive because he only had half the targets. Your first line compared Legette to Coleman. Coleman is a typical rookie. I’d be happy with Legette’s production in a vacuum, but it kind of reminds me a bit of TMJ where people were surprised that he had as many snaps as he did and people excused his production by saying he needed more opportunity when he was our WR2.

I wasn’t really even arguing. I saw two posts using other WRs as examples of why Legette was solid and I wanted to add some comments. Legette has a lot of work to do and I really hope he takes the next step but he had better stats than actual production/effectiveness.

I only compared Legette and Coleman because the post I was responding to had compared them.

Not sure why you're still claiming I said Legette "was solid", even after my last post was entirely dedicated to clarifying that he struggled.  Even the other guy you think said Legette was solid, seemed to more be pointing out the double standard to praise an "impact rookie" like Troy Franklin who had far less production. 

Even if you want to go with the "more targets" angle, the Troy Franklin comparison doesn't really make sense either.  Legette had 58% more targets than Franklin, but 89% more yards and technically 100% more TDs, although TDs are harder and less reliable to extrapolate.  So Franklin still underproduced Legette if you normalize for target share.  His point remains valid even under your reasoning.  Yes Franklin was a 4th round pick and I think that's the key difference, but again that circles back to nobody disputing that Legette struggled this year, despite you misinterpreting a couple of posts in here.

Anyways, sounds like we largely agree.

28 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

 

Just an FYI for Coleman and Franklin, they were not their team’s #1 target. While we may think Coker and Thielen were better, hint they were, Legette out-snapped them by 50% and sizably out-targeted both of them. He just produced Mingo like production per target so it seemed like he was the 3rd target when he actually led our WRs in snaps and targets by a good amount.

Coleman was 3rd in targets on the Bills and had half the targets that Legette had and his ypt was 9.8 to Legette’s 5.5. Franklin was 3rd in targets but he had a Legette/Mingo level of 5.0 ypt. That said, Franklin was a 4th round pick, not a 1st round pick.

Sorry to both of you, but production wise, Legette had a bad season and produced like a 4th rounder. McConkey absolutely should have been our pick. All we can do is hope that somehow Legette improves a lot and doesn’t end up just like Mingo and TMJ.

I don't know why you're arguing as if I'm claiming Legette had an incredible rookie season.  I argued:

1) Legette is acknowledged as the most raw among these prospects.  You don't evaluate a raw high-ceiling prospect like Legette against a polished pro-ready prospect like Ladd solely on the basis of their rookie seasons.  If you think we should stop drafting the raw athletic guys and take the sure thing, then that's a separate discussion.  But Ladd was always going to have the easier transition to the NFL and so nothing should be surprising about him vastly outperforming the other receivers drafted around him in year 1.

2) It felt like the timing was off between Bryce and Legette for a good number of the incompletions.

So those are the justifications for the lack of production, from my point of view.  If I'm explaining why I think Legette struggled, your rebuttal that Legette did in fact struggle doesn't make a lot of sense.

Do you not put any of the responsibility on Coleman for the lack of targets?  The Bills were desperate for somebody to emerge as their WR1 after trading Diggs.  That WR room was wide open for Coleman to seize that opportunity.  Instead, a guy like Shakir has less snaps than Coleman but almost double the targets.  There has to be a reason Coleman isn't getting targeted more...and that reason (from 20 seconds of Googling) seems to be that he really struggles with separation.  I understand being upset about passing over Ladd, but I don't know why Coleman is even in this conversation with his underwhelming rookie season.

2 hours ago, 45catfan said:

McMillan and Franklin weren't first rounders.  Apples to apples, Ladd looks better.  While,yes, he went at the top of second round #34 overall, when we moved up--XL, Coleman and McConkey were the choices and we took XL.   The move up wasn't the main problem, the player that was the rawest of the three that we drafted was my gripe.

Coleman had very similar production to Legette in their respective rookie seasons, but in a much better offensive situation.  If you're acknowledging XL is the rawest of the three, then it doesn't make sense to compare them on the basis of their rookie seasons.  Ladd's floor and ceiling may be mere inches apart (which is still a very good receiver), whereas Legette has miles to go to hit his potential.  So it's all about his trajectory over the next 1-2 seasons.  We're not built to win now anyways, so if Legette can turn into a 1000-yard receiver by Year 3 then that's still a win in my book, even if it took him longer to get there than it did Ladd.

We have obviously been focusing on his drops this year, but also the timing between Bryce and Legette just seemed off at times.  He had his fair share of underthrown and overthrown balls, at a seemingly higher rate than with Thielen, Coker, David Moore, and Tommy Tremble.  I expect the two of them to build their chemistry in the offseason and the production should follow.

It was definitely a pretty spiral and a great throw for a non-QB, but I wouldn't say he dropped it in the bucket.  Sanders had to slow down quite a bit to wait on it as it did have a lot of air on it.  It was exactly the type of floater that Bryce would've gotten criticized for, but we're talking about a 1st overall QB vs. an undrafted WR so it's more than justified to assign a double standard here lol.  It was an impressive enough throw that I think we can definitely add a few more trick plays in the playbook for him.  I think it was a nice play design too.

I'm intrigued by Jarrett Kingston who we picked up in waivers from SF.  I feel like he has potential to become a RT.  There's no way I trust him to slot in for Moton now...but he's one of the guys I'm most interested in keying in on for next preseason.

4 hours ago, CRA said:

I think the only real difference in KB and XL's rookie seasons.....was KB got more targets. 

His season is actually remarkably similar to Funchess's rookie season.  Except Funchess got a good bit less targets/opportunity (only started 5 games).  I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, I wasn't as down on Funchess as a lot of people here and Funchess actually progressed to have a pretty good season with us in his first year as a full-time starter (840 yards, 8 TDs).  Obviously we would hope for more given Legette's ceiling, but I still wouldn't hate it if he could consistently give us that kind of production.

8 hours ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Exactly. 

In other words... don't read to much into charts and graphs. The people that do are the same ones that tell you that stats don't tell the whole story and watch the games with your eyes. 

So you think there are people who are taking this one extremely specific chart and making a broad sweeping judgment about which QBs are *good* or *bad*?  You're really grasping at straws there, buddy.  That doesn't even make sense: the people who read too much into charts and graphs are the same people who say that stats don't tell the whole story?  Maybe you can explain that one...sounds a bit contradictory.

It's not that complicated.  Use statistics to supplement what you see with your eyes on gameday.  They're both a part of the equation. To me, this chart corroborates what we've seen Bryce do time after time this season - throw accurate passes into very tight windows.  Do you dispute seeing him do that at a high rate, in accordance with the chart?  If they released this exact chart last year with Bryce positioned very favorably for this metric, I think we'd all agree it's completely bogus cause it contradicts what we witnessed from his rookie season.  Same principle with a PFF score or a 40 time at the NFL combine.  Maybe you'll get a surprising result that will make you revisit the game tape, but nobody takes those at face value to formulate their entire opinion of a player.

1 hour ago, CRA said:

If I were to play the odds and factor in the past around here….I’m deemed a Bryce hater today.  Lot of the same folks will call me a Bryce apologist next year when they swing the other way when he hits a stretch of not meeting their expectations.   These dances have been danced. 

Or in other words, you seem like you're just always trying really hard to take the contrarian/unpopular stance at any given moment.  If consensus is high on Bryce, you become a critic.  If consensus is low on Bryce, you become an apologist.  Like you see yourself as some noble counterbalancing force to temper sentiment around here.  Not sure if that's a mod thing or what.

We just put up 44 points in a W against a hated divisional rival in their stadium to end their season with playoff aspirations on the line...behind a dominant performance by our much-maligned sophomore #1 overall QB who just put an exclamation point on what, by all accounts, was an impossible redemption arc.  Yeah I think calling him a top 10 QB is rather hyperbolic, but if you'd rather go all "Ackchyually" guy meme than to "Huddle" up (pun intended) in excitement around a thrilling season finale, it's just an odd way to invest your time and energy IMO.

3 minutes ago, NAS said:

It also helps that Bryce was masterful at moving inside the pocket, making quick decisions and avoiding pressure 

Yeah but that's every week  harder to do that when pressure is coming from everywhere.  I'm not taking anything away from Bryce, just saying give the man some adequate protection and LET HIM COOK. 

35 minutes ago, jb2288 said:

SHEEEEEESH. If your top 5 is QB and all your OL you are going to win a lot of games in the NFL. 

O-line/protection was by far the biggest difference from last week to this week.  And that was the difference between scoring 14 points and 44 points.

I’m not sure if there was a single “epic” throw all through his rookie season. Now there are arguably multiple each game. Our little man with the “big time” throws.

I'd like to see Tremble come back; it seems like he's developing good rapport with Bryce.  That one long pass where Bryce scrambled outside the pocket and Tremble turned upfield right in sync as Bryce let the ball go, was some beautiful mind meld improv between QB and receiver that I haven't seen in a while from this team.

But I also support Tremble to pursue what I believe to be his lifelong dream, of becoming an Olympic hurdler.  Three things in life are certain: death, taxes, and Tommy Tremble making an unnecessary hurdle in the open field.

9 minutes ago, csx said:

He has 12 tds for the season. All of which came after returning against Denver

Come on man…lol. This requires the bare minimum level of critical thinking. The tweet doesn’t say “passing TDs”.

42 minutes ago, csx said:

Might want to check the math on that. The tds are definitely wrong.

Yards wrong too. Both overstated.

TDs aren’t wrong. 15 TDs over 9 games since benching = 1.67 TDs per game, extrapolated over a 17 game season = 28.33 TDs. Don’t feel like doing the math on the yards cause I’m on my phone.

20 hours ago, CRA said:

He was a 2nd round pick.  But a team can probably have him in FA for a couple million in guaranteed next year.  

the 5th round RB Denver added last year is only 300k in guaranteed.  That’s why you draft a RB.  You then go spend the actual money elsewhere.  You don’t need to add FA RBs.  Cost is too high.   Value too good in the 5th-ish round for RBs.  LITERAL peanuts in cost for good players 

see Hubbard.  He was a peanut RB.  No cost for years.  And a good player.  Math is just good in that mid to late area and it’s not close to the undrafted guys.  5th rounders are studs at power 5 programs (that’s not comparable to undrafted who weren’t studs at that level of play) 

How many actually good teams abide by your philosophy of not paying RBs in FA and only drafting them in the mid rounds?  Ravens paid big money to Henry in FA, Eagles paid big money to Saquon in FA, Packers paid big money to Josh Jacobs in FA, Bills spent a recent 2nd round pick on Cook, Steelers spent a recent 1st on Harris, Lions paid big money to Montgomery in FA AND spent a 1st on Gibbs, Vikings and Commanders spent decent money in FA on Jones and Ekeler, Texans paid big money to Mixon in FA, and Broncos spent a recent 2nd round pick on Williams.

Those are playoff teams...among the best of the best in the league.  The only playoff teams who would probably fall under your strategy of minimal investment in RBs would be the Chiefs who have a pretty mediocre run game, the Bucs, the Rams (we'll see if they extend Kyren Williams to big money this offseason), and the Chargers.

You even said you've held this position about running backs for years, which makes sense because it doesn't seem like you've adapted to the actual state of the modern NFL.  Instead you singularly focus on a few teams who got lucky actually hitting on mid-round talented RBs like Bucky and Tracy, and ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  Not sure why we're even mentioning the Broncos' 5th round RB they just drafted since he hasn't actually done anything of note in the league.

17 hours ago, Shotgun said:

2024

Stroud 19 td  12 int

Young 12 td  9 int

Youngs having a better year?

First 8 games: 

Stroud: 11 total TDs, 4 Int

Young (first 5 games due to benching): 3 total TDs, 5 Int

Last 8 games:

Stroud: 8 total TDs 8 Int

Young: 13 total TDs 4 Int

Do people not understand the implication behind a QB's "stock"?  Or what "trend" means?  This is a lot more relevant of a statistical breakdown when we're talking about stock.  I've yet to see a single article proclaim Bryce > Stroud.  These comparisons, as of late, are always framed around Bryce trending up and Stroud trending down.  But the gap between the two after their rookie seasons was monumental.  So while Bryce may be taking steps to close the gap, he still has a lot of ground to make up before he even sniffs Stroud in the broader conversation.

I've poked around a few sites for overall QB power rankings and they all have Stroud at the 14-17 range and Bryce in the low 20's, which seems pretty fair to me.

Just a reminder…this is who OP is on record wanting us to draft lol.

8 hours ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Absolving CJ of any responsibility??

I gotta give some of you credit, you have mastered the art of creating your own narratives for argument sake and defense of Bryce. Not even texans fans are letting cj off the hook

Cause they’re Texans fans, not Stroud fans. Texans fans aren’t scared to call out when a player is performing to the detriment of the team. Stroud fanboys on the other hand…might do something like spend their Christmas evening online passionately defending a QB who just put up 0 points at home against the 31st ranked passing defense in a prime time game. Jesus…you calling anyone “Bryce Stan” when you’re the embodiment of the “LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE” meme anytime Stroud comes up is hilarious.
 

Why are we still talking about how poor innocent Stroud was mistreated and wronged in the national media last offseason? The dude is making millions of dollars, won rookie of the year, and took his team to the playoffs in his first year…he’s not a martyr, he doesn’t need you defending his honor at every turn. He’s doing fine. Y’all talked ad nauseum about Bryce watching Netflix all offseason and yet I haven’t heard anyone mention Stroud going on everybody and their grandmas’ podcasts last offseason riding high on his victory tour. Hey maybe if Stroud focused more on training and less on promoting himself in the offseason, he wouldn’t be regressing like this! For the record, I don’t actually believe that and I couldn’t care less about how these kids spend their offseason…they earned a break from football. I’m just taking a page out of your book with the types of desperate arguments you make against players you don’t like, while turning a blind eye to the ones you do like.

9 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

47 sacks with 3 games to go.   His line is really bad.   But somehow they are sitting at 9 wins and going to win their division.  Some qbs can overcome adversity 

Yet he has the 5th most time in the pocket out of any QB this season.  Sometimes QBs hold the ball too long.

58 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

thats not even remotely true

A bit premature to make that call.  Stroud had an incredible rookie season, but this year he has been an average to below average starting QB in virtually every relevant metric, other than being 9-5 with a Top 5-10 defense, in an awful division.  Year 3 will be telling to see if he looks more like Rookie CJ or Sophomore CJ.  If it's Sophomore CJ...then trading the haul that we did for a statistically middle-of-the-road starting QB doesn't seem worth it...?

2 hours ago, frankw said:

While I am sympathetic O'Connell was injured and wish him well he was having a dreadful game and his future is competing for a backup job around the league at best. You can rabble about narratives all you like. I'm expecting our #1 pick to ascend much higher than the likes of that.

Yeah the issue is your incessant need to sensationalize everything.  Why can't you just say you have higher standards for our QB, instead of "Bryce is on par with the guy who was just BENCHED against Tampa Bay for being so awful!!!" which was just a lie.

It's ironic that the broader conversation here is around people who just point to stats/box scores without actually watching the game or putting it in context of how Bryce actually looked on the field...and then you literally just did that egregiously for Aidan O'Connell lol.  You've perfectly exemplified why it's silly to make assumptions entirely from a box score.

4 hours ago, frankw said:

For anyone curious his new passer rating puts him right between Aiden O'Connell and Andy Dalton.

I'm happy he's improving but maybe we should keep things in perspective here.

O'Connell just had a game so ugly he got benched for Desmond Ridder. Andy Dalton was so bad we had to go back to Bryce. I mean to consider this is as good news for our first overall pick is a very low bar even for this franchise.

Did you really just glance at a Box Score and conjure up a narrative around it? Lol O’Connell didn’t get benched for Ridder, he got carted off the field with a knee injury. 

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/lists/panthers-eagles-week-14-pff-grades/

Here's the full list of Top 5/Bottom 5 for offense and defense.  DJ Johnson has quietly put together back-to-back solid performances (or solid PFF grades, at least).  Especially in a game where the rest of our starting D-line filled up the entire Bottom 5.

Welp, at least the Chuba extension is looking better...