MasterAwesome

I just don’t understand where all this “woah woah let’s all slow down and wait for the full story to come out” energy was when Tepper fired the Charlotte FC coach. You were one of the first reactionaries to jump in and throw some snarky comment in. And then you sat back while everyone carried on for 10 pages of “The Roast of David Tepper”. It was incredibly obvious there was more to that firing behind the scenes but you didn’t seem very interested in that case. At least be consistent. Please spare us both the grandstanding platitudes of “corrupt evil billionaires blah blah” because I don’t have any love for Tepper. I’m just curious what your reasoning is for wildly different approaches to these two stories.

That even raises another question: who gets the bulk of the blame for an overpay? Fitterer or Suleiman? Suleiman is technically in charge of contract negotiations. All these roles kind of blend together and muddy the waters.

It's probably a reasonable assumption to think that the hotter a coach's seat/the shorter his leash, the less authority he has to override the GM if there is a roster disagreement. That probably applies to Fox in 2010 and Rhule in 2022, so again a reasonable assumption to think the GM had more flexibility to steer roster decisions. That's part of the complexity of the coach/GM dynamic, that their individual roles/responsibilities/authorities are somewhat fluid depending on the warmth of their seats. I'm sure Rhule probably had more influence on roster management in his rookie season when Tepper threw his entire support (and wallet) behind Rhule, whereas present day, the power dynamic has probably shifted away from Rhule and more towards Fitterer. Again, it's all speculation though.

Well yeah...my whole point is that it's hard to evaluate them individually when it comes to roster management because you don't really know the power dynamic behind-the-scenes nor do you know which of them is driving any individual move. It's much more straightforward on the other hand, to evaluate them as a pairing, which is what you're talking about. It's like when Ron was the coach and Hurney was the GM and we had some pretty bad drafts and then Ron gets fired and Rhule came in and everyone loved Rhule/Hurney's first draft together (at the time) and people were all "CLEARLY this was Rhule's draft cause it was so much more awesomer than our other Hurney drafts in the previous years!!". But I would argue that the Ron/Hurney partnership needs to be evaluated separately from the Rhule/Hurney partnership, which needs to be evaluated separately from the Rhule/Fitterer partnership. Coach/GM pairings create complex dynamics when it comes to roster management. I'm only talking specifically roster management...there are some things we can probably confidently evaluate them individually on, like game management, which I would give Rhule like a D- on.

Do you guys honestly think Rhule and/or Fitterer are making unilateral decisions when it comes to the roster? A coach/GM relationship should be highly collaborative; otherwise, that's a sign of a highly dysfunctional partnership IMO if they are on wildly different pages on roster moves (FA, extensions, draft, etc.). It's very difficult to evaluate them individually when it comes to roster management.

Agreed. I was simply pushing back on the suggestion that "hey maybe Brady was actually a good OC who was set up to fail and scapegoated because he was stuck with Sam Darnold". Like I said, I think it's silly to hand-wave away Brady's failures simply because he had a terrible starting QB...but similarly, I'm not in any way absolving Sam Darnold's failures by saying he was a victim of a terrible OC. Brady and Darnold were both garbage and it's no mystery how Brady + Darnold + a terrible starting o-line = a joke of an offense.

Chinn and Harper are similar types of old-school SS box safeties. Harper was just as limited in coverage as Chinn. The difference is, Chinn is an absolute athletic freak (10/10 RAS) while Harper was about 73 years old as our starting SS in 2015 and one of the slowest, if not the slowest, safeties in the league. So Harper had zero recovery speed when he did get burned in the secondary.

Yeah but you're doing the whole black-and-white holistic statistical look at the offense which is literally the exact thing I said I am not doing. I'm talking about a nuanced evaluation where you look in depth at why the offense struggled, not just simply that the offense struggled. I'm saying we clearly had a problem with in-game adjustments, which you appear to agree with, which objectively falls on the shoulders of the OC. So simply hand-waving Brady's failures as "oh he had Sam Darnold" is a very surface-level and elementary analysis. We can do a little better than that, as Panthers' fans who watched every game. I think too much is made of the new bum Rhule-lackey who filled in at OC for the last 5 games of the season. People seem to use his failure as vindication of Joe Brady like "See! We still sucked on offense after Brady left, Brady clearly wasn't the problem". We thrust this absolute nobody (Rhule's co-offensive coordinator at Baylor lol) into a prominent role as OC for the last 5 games of the season, while still using Brady's playbook. Properly and extensively coordinating an offense is something that begins in the offseason with playbook development, while using OTAs and minicamp to instill and tweak the offensive scheme. To think some rando lackey could have an actual shot at success going from running backs coach to OC using some other dude's playbook and offensive scheme is laughable. Now that McAdoo has come in and has had a proper offseason to build a playbook and develop/install his offensive scheme...if Sam Darnold starts the year and plays a considerable number of games as our starting QB and our offense crashes and burns similarly to last year, THEN we can maybe begin to consider that as somewhat of a vindication of Joe Brady.

Now you're kind of doing that whole reductive superficial thing with your evaluation, that I'd expect from an outside observer who never actually watched our games. It's easy to look at our team on paper and say "Ok, they went from a mediocre QB in Teddy, to a bad QB in Sam. Of course their offense looked worse!! Any OC would look worse under those circumstances". But for someone who watches our games as I'm assuming you did, you should be able to apply a bit more nuanced of an evaluation to assess Brady's individual performance within the broader holistic view of our offense. Watching our games over the last two years, did you ever feel like you were watching Brady make in-game adjustments in real time? I sure as hell didn't. It looked like he went into the game with a rigid gameplan and he stuck with it throughout the course of the game. Why did we consistently suck absolute a%@hole in the 3rd quarter last year? Is Sam just inherently a worse QB in the 3rd quarter? Or were defensive coaches making adjustments after halftime and throwing things at us that we were entirely unprepared for and unable to adjust to in turn? How many 3rd quarter meltdowns should it take for us to learn to come out of halftime with some new tricks up our sleeve? Football in large part is a chess match between offensive and defensive coordinators and Brady routinely made opposing DCs look like Grandmasters out there. Oh, we have one of the worst o-lines in NFL history? Let's not run the ball, and instead do more 5 and 7 step drops in the pass game. Even during the 2020 season, we consistently sucked in the red zone all year long and it was never apparent that we tried anything different. It's easier than you make it out to be, to isolate an OC's performance within the offense. The lack of adjustments routinely killed us over the last couple years, and that is on the OC. I don't know if McAdoo will be an improvement in that area, but I sure as hell can't imagine he could be worse.

Andy Reid might be the most out-of-shape coach in the league but he's one of the best. Not sure what parallel you're trying to draw between Ron's ample chest and his coaching ability. I think it's clear Rhule was just emphasizing the importance of building relationships with his players. Personally I think he's got a million other more pressing issues with his coaching that he should emphasize, but I don't think his answer was very offensive.

Well, I don't know that I would agree with that comparison. IMO there's the coworker complaining for 8 hours a day, then there's the "positive" coworker who gets fed up and makes a comment like "Dude, do you have to complain so much??". Then maybe they'll go back-and-forth for a bit during that spat, but I don't think there's anyone who has made it their mission to go around combating negativity full-time (i.e. spending 8 hours complaining about a co-worker who complains too much). Except maybe iamhubby lol but he is exactly who I would consider one of those anti-criticism "toxic positivity" guys. And the dude literally got banned for 24 hours as a result of it lol. So that kind of set a strange precedent that persistent complaining about the team = OK, but persistent complaining about complaining = bannable. But then complaining about complaining about complaining is also OK I guess, considering people continued to beat up on iamhubby during his 24 hour ban while complaining about how toxic and annoying he is. Maybe I'm weird but the offseason seems like the ideal time to dial back on the negativity, not ramp it up...no? I mean we're 0-0, clean slate in the standings, just brought in new talent at key positions via draft/FA, lots of coaching overhaul, etc. I get that we still have Rhule and Darnold which is obviously going to put a cap on how optimistic we truly can be, but still...this is our opportunity to put the last terrible season behind and look towards a fresh start.

Yeah I totally agree about Sam. I don't wanna get in the weeds about him specifically because I was just tossing out a random example of a "positive" comment that would be faced with severe criticism/borderline bullying on these boards. That comment in no way reflects my personal thoughts on Sam. That dude in particular who quoted me, I swear has some kind of internal decision tree algorithm where he scours the boards for any mention of Sam Darnold: "Is comment negative? If yes, then -> flame reaction. If no, then -> respond "SAM DARNOLD LOVER!!!!". Even neutral comments gets blasted by him. I would know, because I assure you I haven't said a single remotely positive thing about Darnold in roughly a year and yet he has quoted me several times to lump me in with the 1 or 2 "stans" that Darnold has left in here. The Huddle sometimes seems like an ass-backwards microcosm of society where people wear their negativity like a badge of honor while cheery or positive posters are seen as social pariahs. Trust me, I get that we suck and have sucked for a few consecutive years and there is a lot to be upset about. But at some point, it's just excessive and gratuitous and draining. If I worked a crappy job that provided terrible pay and benefits and overworked its employees, it's still gonna be annoying as hell to work with a coworker who, for 8 hours a day, complains nonstop about how crappy it is to work there. It's like, yeah I get it dude, I'm living it too...can we talk about something else other than how miserable it is working here? You ask that guy if he saw the new Doctor Strange movie and he's like "Naw I can't afford a movie ticket with what they're paying me at this POS job!!" or you'll ask him if he has any plans for Christmas and he says "Nope I can't even afford gas with what they're paying me at this POS job so I'm just staying home and recovering from the long hours at this POS job!!". Like every attempt at conversation pivots to how terrible the job is...that's how it feels on the Huddle. And hey, the "toxic positivity" crowd I mentioned in my previous post would be your coworkers who show up to this crappy job every day like "What a wonderful day to be at this amazing company!" and "Hey quit complaining about your job! You should be grateful to be here!" - these people are obnoxious too which I have acknowledged. I just VERY rarely see those kind of people here.

Lol so not just making a comment about Sam Darnold making strides, but making a comment about a theoretical comment about Sam Darnold making strides is enough to rile people up. I just tossed up the alley-oop and you slammed that bad boy home for me. Thanks for the assist.

I think one of the problems is that there is so much higher of an intolerance for positivity than there is negativity. Continuously trash the team/organization several times a day and you'll maybe get 2-3 posters who feel strongly enough to make some snarky comment about your persistent negativity. But make one little comment like "I think Sam Darnold might finally make some strides this year behind a solid o-line" and watch how many people will gang up and jump down that dude's throat and practically bully him off the message boards lol. Yes, pessimism is a rational and justified outcome based on the state of the Panthers' franchise for the past several years, but there's no need to drag people down into the mud who choose to adopt an optimistic outlook. Granted, both sides should stop imposing their outlook on others which is why I think it's silly to just be outright anti-criticism. I just think that's such a tiny minority on these boards with that opinion, which makes it so weird that they are constantly talked about so much. Meanwhile the doomers act like they're some kind of marginalized oppressed group trying to be censored and silenced when they're by far the majority, and even fill prominent moderator roles here. I think "toxic positivity" and "toxic negativity" are both very real things on these boards. The thing is, toxic positivity accounts for maybe 1-5% of posts/posters here while toxic negativity accounts for upwards of 30-40% of posts/posters here and yet people are quick to cry "both sides" like they are equally destructive. Both groups co-existing not only should happen, but needs to happen for the sake of interesting discourse. But the discourse has basically devolved into "StOp BeInG nEgAtIvE" vs. "QuIt BeInG a DuMb HoMeR" which you can pretty much reduce to "stop whining" vs. "stop whining". There are very few actual substantive arguments taking place here anymore and that's a symptom of the disease.

Can you guess why that is?

Haynes and Luvu are two players that would constantly flash on screen in limited snaps; I'm excited to see them take on more prominent roles. Hell, with Burns locking down one DE position and guys like YGM/Haynes/Luvu rotating into the other spot, I'm fairly comfortable with our edge rushers. That's not even factoring in the chances of a guy like Barno coming in and earning a decent chunk of playing time as a rookie.

I’m not sure why my argument is hard for you to follow. My argument is against the narrative that his poor performance was due to him not having enough time to learn the offense. If that was true, he wouldn’t have had his best game in his first start and then regress consistently from week to week after. That just makes zero sense no matter how you caveat it. “There was no actual time for Cam to learn”? What? There were 6 weeks for him to learn. It’s not an all-or-nothing thing - you don’t either know zero of the playbook or 100% of it. You would want to see him build more and more mastery of the playbook from week to week and have that reflect in his performances, and that just wasn’t the case. Going from Brady to “Rhule’s stooge” is a really odd deflection considering they used the same playbook, which is the only thing we’re talking about. I wasn’t even arguing against anything you were saying originally (for once) lol I was agreeing with your point and then expanding upon it. But then you got defensive and wanted to make a million excuses for what was objectively a poor season from Cam (along with the rest of our offense + coaching staff). I agree with you 100%: “two things can be true”…as in, it can be true that Matt Rhule is a terrible coach who didn’t do Cam any favors and it can also be simultaneously true that Cam was a bad QB last year in his own right. You seem to want to deflect all blame from Cam and onto Rhule considering you’ve talked more about Rhule than Cam in your responses.

And what about his next three starts after that? His performance as a passer basically got worse and worse as the year went on (if we exclude the Miami game in his 2nd start which was one of the worst QB performances I’ve seen, although I’d put that mostly on the o-line). If the problem was that he was thrust into the QB position before getting a chance to learn the playbook, then I would expect him to look more and more comfortable under center as the season progressed and he had more time to learn the playbook. But in reality, it was the opposite.

Yeah which doesn’t exactly jive with the whole “learning the offense” narrative. His best game was his first start, and his performance basically declined more and more as the season went on.

No chance PJ wouldn't be the odd man out the door. The "Rhule connection" got PJ a 1-year vet minimum $0 guaranteed extension lol. Sounds like a guy they're extremely comfortable cutting. Is the "Rhule connection" strong enough to unilaterally get PJ a roster spot but too weak to even secure the guy any guaranteed money? This is a confusing dynamic. "Inactive" vs. "Practice Squad" is an enormous difference. Practice Squad means they're leaving Corral to get poached by other teams, which would happen the instant he's put on the PS. So yeah you should probably be a little more mindful of the wording you use.

You literally said in another thread that if we trade for Baker Mayfield, Rhule would put Matt Corral on the practice squad lol. The Matt Corral who was the #1 QB on our board in this draft, who we traded next year's 3rd round pick for. Even kungfoo (who seems to be aligned with you pretty much on every opinion) doesn't seem to want to touch the insanity of that claim and rightfully acknowledges that PJ would obviously be cut in that scenario. A claim like that shows me either you do legit hate (and I don't use that term lightly) Rhule to the point where it's clouding your judgment...OR, you're playing some kind of "shock jock" role to drive traffic for Igo. It's okay to be unhappy that Rhule is our coach. I certainly fall in that camp. What you're doing, which is frankly juvenile, is making outrageous claims and justifying it simply "because that'd be the most Rhule thing ever", whatever that means. Your last ~27 "that'd be the most Rhule thing ever" predictions have crashed and burned, so at some point you should maybe re-evaluate your prediction criteria. You might as well go all out and start a thread about how we're gonna cut Brian Burns, DJ Moore, CMC, Moton, and Chinn because that would just be the most Rhule thing ever, amirite? Hell, that thread would be the most CRA thing ever. Rhule has done some obvious disastrous things for our organization but one of the worst under-the-radar things he has done is absolutely ruined Panthers' discourse by turning everyone into mindless sheep who roam the internet saying "Rhule baaaaaaaad". It's ridiculous and cringey but I have to basically caveat every post of mine with "hey guys just to be clear, I very much dislike Rhule/Darnold/Tepper and I wish we could be rid of them"* so the mob doesn't jump down my throat with "OHHHH SORRY WE DON'T HAVE TO LOVEEEEE THEM AS MUCH AS YOU DO". And yet they still do most of the time lol. *hey guys just to be clear, I very much dislike Rhule/Darnold/Tepper and I wish we could be rid of them

Wow posting an article from some dumb bored sportswriter?? At least quote a reputable analyst, like CRA’s brother-in-law Hank.

I'm not interested in "ranking" our OC...that's silly. We don't know. I'm evaluating his body of work and I'm saying it's limited but it's overall encouraging. That's it. Pretty uncontroversial IMO to a levelheaded person. You're the one taking a hard-line stance on McAdoo and I was trying to understand your reasoning for that. Cause last time we had a discussion where I questioned your reasoning (revolving around Joe Brady), you basically walked back everything you said about him originally. You went from him being an impressive OC who produced career numbers for our offense, to now holding the opinion that he is even worse than McAdoo who you are already calling a bottom 1/3 OC. It feels like you generally start with your conclusion already formulated and then try to develop your arguments/premises as you go, rather than the other way around. Speaking of your reasoning...shame on me for formulating my opinion based on statistics while you adopt your opinion from a single Giants' fan lol. Imagine taking one random Huddler's opinion and building your entire argument around that. I mean there are legit some Panthers fans out there who say Cam was a meh QB for us. "Numbers lie" and yet you've admitted to basically regurgitating what your brother-in-law has told you? I think we can leave things there...I just wish I had known I was arguing against your brother-in-law by proxy this whole time cause that explains a lot.

My whole point is that whatever league opinion is about a player is immaterial to their actual abilities. It's often a reflection of their actual abilities, but it's ultimately immaterial. A player or coach isn't better or worse at their job based upon their perception or perceived value. Their ability directly affects their perception, but your argument seems to be that it's the other way around. Malik Willis isn't going to be a worse NFL player because he was drafted in the 2nd round instead of the 1st round. And that's the flaw in your premise. Perception is part of the overall evaluation because it makes you go back and evaluate a player or coach like "hmm what am I missing here?" which is why I said I do factor it in. I just think you and CRA making it the crux of your argument about McAdoo seems pretty overblown. My primary evaluation is: how did McAdoo perform when he was OC of the Giants? A secondary evaluation of mine is: how was McAdoo perceived in league circles? You and CRA's primary evaluation is how NFL front offices view him. I think my approach is more comprehensive and I am honestly not sure why that's a contentious take. And you've lost me on your Rhule/Giants point. How do the Giants not matching our offer preclude any negotiations from having happened? My entire post was emphasizing the fact that negotiations take place between the "buyer" (i.e. the Panthers) and the "seller" (i.e. Rhule in this case). Are you suggesting negotiations only happen if there's a bidding war? If I go and interview for a job, there are going to be negotiations between me and the hiring company. I'm going to evaluate my current situation and decide whether the company's offer is enticing enough for me to leave my current job and accept. Negotiations aren't contingent upon me taking their offer to other companies to match it.