MasterAwesome

I'm sorry if fact-checking is uncomfortable for you since you just blindly accepted what he said as the truth. I mean why not just say Jaycee Horn has never played a single game and has had both legs amputated in the offseason if you want to be hyperbolic and think it's acceptable to lie about statistics? We can acknowledge that he has serious injury concerns while also not making stuff up.

That's not even true... Jeff Otah started 29/64 games (missed all of 2010) = 45%. Horn started 37/68 games = 54%.

You think Jaycee Horn of the Carolina Panthers is out here winning popularity contests? Hell if anything, it's more likely he suffered from the fan portion and had to make up a lot of ground among player and coach voting. Remember this graphic from a year ago? Somehow I don't think our fans are coming out in droves to campaign for Pro Bowl selections for our players. I don't hold the Pro Bowl in super high regard but if the claim is that no reasonable person thinks Jaycee Horn is a Top 10 cornerback, I think pointing to his Pro Bowl selection is surely a valid rebuttal to that. It would appear a lot of NFL players and coaches think he's a Top 10 cornerback, which I find rather compelling.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/panthers-are-working-to-finalize-a-deal-with-eagles-dt-milton-williams I think hopefully we're still okay?

I don't think any of these moves in FA takes anyone off our board. Teams should be using FA to address their needs so that they can take BPA in the draft, instead of reaching out of desperation. I'm sure we have even stated as such.

How is this not a variation of the argument people gave for not drafting CJ Stroud because "look at this long list of failed Ohio State QBs"? I think it makes a lot more sense to judge a prospect on their own merits, rather than dinging them for the accomplishments (or lack thereof) of randos like Daniel Graham from 2002. All those players you listed have their own strengths/weaknesses and failed/underachieved for one reason or another unique to them as individuals. If you want to argue positional value, then that's different. I don't know anything about Tyler Warren, but if I could theoretically draft a Greg Olsen or a Brock Bowers with the 8th overall pick? I'd take that.

https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/nfl-carolina-panthers-predicted-shaq-thompson-eddy-pineiro-ian-thomas-move-on It links to the same article in the OP but I don't have a subscription to see which interpretation is more accurate as to whether Person thinks the Panthers "could" move on from Ian Thomas (as Juan characterized) or whether Person expects the Panthers to move on from Ian Thomas (as SI characterized).

Poor CJS4LIFE

I only compared Legette and Coleman because the post I was responding to had compared them. Not sure why you're still claiming I said Legette "was solid", even after my last post was entirely dedicated to clarifying that he struggled. Even the other guy you think said Legette was solid, seemed to more be pointing out the double standard to praise an "impact rookie" like Troy Franklin who had far less production. Even if you want to go with the "more targets" angle, the Troy Franklin comparison doesn't really make sense either. Legette had 58% more targets than Franklin, but 89% more yards and technically 100% more TDs, although TDs are harder and less reliable to extrapolate. So Franklin still underproduced Legette if you normalize for target share. His point remains valid even under your reasoning. Yes Franklin was a 4th round pick and I think that's the key difference, but again that circles back to nobody disputing that Legette struggled this year, despite you misinterpreting a couple of posts in here. Anyways, sounds like we largely agree.

I don't know why you're arguing as if I'm claiming Legette had an incredible rookie season. I argued: 1) Legette is acknowledged as the most raw among these prospects. You don't evaluate a raw high-ceiling prospect like Legette against a polished pro-ready prospect like Ladd solely on the basis of their rookie seasons. If you think we should stop drafting the raw athletic guys and take the sure thing, then that's a separate discussion. But Ladd was always going to have the easier transition to the NFL and so nothing should be surprising about him vastly outperforming the other receivers drafted around him in year 1. 2) It felt like the timing was off between Bryce and Legette for a good number of the incompletions. So those are the justifications for the lack of production, from my point of view. If I'm explaining why I think Legette struggled, your rebuttal that Legette did in fact struggle doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you not put any of the responsibility on Coleman for the lack of targets? The Bills were desperate for somebody to emerge as their WR1 after trading Diggs. That WR room was wide open for Coleman to seize that opportunity. Instead, a guy like Shakir has less snaps than Coleman but almost double the targets. There has to be a reason Coleman isn't getting targeted more...and that reason (from 20 seconds of Googling) seems to be that he really struggles with separation. I understand being upset about passing over Ladd, but I don't know why Coleman is even in this conversation with his underwhelming rookie season.

Coleman had very similar production to Legette in their respective rookie seasons, but in a much better offensive situation. If you're acknowledging XL is the rawest of the three, then it doesn't make sense to compare them on the basis of their rookie seasons. Ladd's floor and ceiling may be mere inches apart (which is still a very good receiver), whereas Legette has miles to go to hit his potential. So it's all about his trajectory over the next 1-2 seasons. We're not built to win now anyways, so if Legette can turn into a 1000-yard receiver by Year 3 then that's still a win in my book, even if it took him longer to get there than it did Ladd. We have obviously been focusing on his drops this year, but also the timing between Bryce and Legette just seemed off at times. He had his fair share of underthrown and overthrown balls, at a seemingly higher rate than with Thielen, Coker, David Moore, and Tommy Tremble. I expect the two of them to build their chemistry in the offseason and the production should follow.

It was definitely a pretty spiral and a great throw for a non-QB, but I wouldn't say he dropped it in the bucket. Sanders had to slow down quite a bit to wait on it as it did have a lot of air on it. It was exactly the type of floater that Bryce would've gotten criticized for, but we're talking about a 1st overall QB vs. an undrafted WR so it's more than justified to assign a double standard here lol. It was an impressive enough throw that I think we can definitely add a few more trick plays in the playbook for him. I think it was a nice play design too.

I'm intrigued by Jarrett Kingston who we picked up in waivers from SF. I feel like he has potential to become a RT. There's no way I trust him to slot in for Moton now...but he's one of the guys I'm most interested in keying in on for next preseason.

His season is actually remarkably similar to Funchess's rookie season. Except Funchess got a good bit less targets/opportunity (only started 5 games). I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, I wasn't as down on Funchess as a lot of people here and Funchess actually progressed to have a pretty good season with us in his first year as a full-time starter (840 yards, 8 TDs). Obviously we would hope for more given Legette's ceiling, but I still wouldn't hate it if he could consistently give us that kind of production.

So you think there are people who are taking this one extremely specific chart and making a broad sweeping judgment about which QBs are *good* or *bad*? You're really grasping at straws there, buddy. That doesn't even make sense: the people who read too much into charts and graphs are the same people who say that stats don't tell the whole story? Maybe you can explain that one...sounds a bit contradictory. It's not that complicated. Use statistics to supplement what you see with your eyes on gameday. They're both a part of the equation. To me, this chart corroborates what we've seen Bryce do time after time this season - throw accurate passes into very tight windows. Do you dispute seeing him do that at a high rate, in accordance with the chart? If they released this exact chart last year with Bryce positioned very favorably for this metric, I think we'd all agree it's completely bogus cause it contradicts what we witnessed from his rookie season. Same principle with a PFF score or a 40 time at the NFL combine. Maybe you'll get a surprising result that will make you revisit the game tape, but nobody takes those at face value to formulate their entire opinion of a player.